# When in human history should a reasonable person have known slavery was evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513 "2010-04-09T12:34:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/61 "2010-04-09T15:39:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > With the exception of **Martin Hyde** ’s brilliant and insightful post, everyone here seems to argue some variant of, “It’s always been evil, and everyone should have known it, no matter what.” I didn’t, and I officially inform you of my intention to pout about it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/62 "2010-04-09T15:40:58Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > As for the Indian issue that was raised I would posit that, if an emperor had to issue a decree banning slavery, then the implication is that the average man over whom that emperor ruled would have felt that slavery was a reasonable and everyday occurrence. The issuance of a decree does NOT mean that the average man agrees with it…quite the opposite, in fact! Other than in a form of democratic society it is unwise to assume that any law has the support of agreement of those who are controlled by it. I see this as the free parking fallacy. If there is slavery and it is legal, people will _have_ to use it, evil or not. I may not like it, but if everyone else has free labour how am I suppose to compete, this cotton isn’t going to pick itself. I’m not a hypocrite if I’m simply playing by the rules establish. Said another way, why was murder made a crime? And when did a reasonable person decide it was evil? It’s interesting you mention Brazil. I was in Australia a few weeks ago and stopped by a coffee farm. Australia used to be a huge producer of coffee until progressive liberalization of society increased the cost of labour. Meanwhile, places like Brazil and South America could produce extremely cheap coffee by using cheap labour (slaves). Australia couldn’t possibly compete and basically stopped producing coffee until a mechanical harvester was developed. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/63 "2010-04-09T15:41:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A false analogy; a mindless embryo isn’t a person. Says you. I could just as easily dehumanize black folks or women and truncate their rights (or even enslave them) just by saying “well they’re not really people” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/64 "2010-04-09T15:41:45Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Again, most people weren’t self-aware enough to think like this. That’s just an argument that they weren’t reasonable; not that a reasonable person wouldn’t have known better. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There was no reason to make up excuses to enslave people, it was considered normal, appropriate behavior. If that was true, then they wouldn’t have done so; but they did. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/65 "2010-04-09T15:41:47Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > You forget children. Owners had children with slaves, it must have been an awakening for some - not all - that their own child is a slave, and the implications of slavery. > > Not to mention falling in love with a slave and knowing that they are really no different. Only really if we’re talking about slavery in the American south. Slavery wasn’t usually hereditary, so the son or daughter of a slave wouldn’t normally have been considered a de facto slave in most circumstances. Sometimes it was hereditary, though, for example the Spartans tried to maintain a hereditary under class that most would view as a slave-class. In medieval Europe it wasn’t unheard of for a seigneur to have a bastard with a serf. Often times the bastard child would be raised in the same manner as the seigneurs own legitimate children. The bastard sons of European nobles were almost universally better off than normal serfs, they sometimes even managed to legitimize themselves, they usually were able to have some sort of leadership position in the local ruling structure. So in the case of medieval serfdom the hereditary nature of serfs didn’t always apply when the child was the offspring of the seigneur. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/66 "2010-04-09T15:42:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The other way around, I think. First you decide you want to enslave someone; then you convince yourself they are inferior or evil so as to excuse your doing so. Such as declaring tribes all over the New World cannibals in order to justify enslaving them. And I consider the fact that the people of the past felt it necessary to come up with excuses and justifications evidence that at some level they knew it was wrong; the fact that they did it anyway just demonstrates that hypocrisy and self delusion are not new inventions. Yeah, I think you’ve got it backwards. The very concept of ‘the other’ in basic language implies inferiority. If I recall correctly, the greek root of ‘barbarian’ comes from some vague concept of ‘those losers who can’t even speak properly’. That implies strongly that those not a part of ones ‘tribe, city, family’ or whatever are NOT as valuable as those who are and could therefore be inferior and then could be enslaved downstream. There’s no justification needed if the basic concepts in ones head spell out the other’s inferiority. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/67 "2010-04-09T15:43:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s just an argument that they weren’t reasonable; not that a reasonable person wouldn’t have known better. Irrelevant, since I think we both have established most people weren’t reasonable until every recently. > [@](#): > > If that was true, then they wouldn’t have done so; but they did. First, cite? People who bothered to explain the morality of their actions were the exception, not the rule. If you can prove otherwise I’ll be very enlightened. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/68 "2010-04-09T15:44:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > [QUOTE=Der Trihs] > A false analogy; a mindless embryo isn’t a person. Says you. I could just as easily dehumanize black folks or women and truncate their rights (or even enslave them) just by saying “well they’re not really people” [/QUOTE] The difference is, I am objectively right, and you are objectively wrong. No amount of insistence that an embryo is a person will make it one; and no amount of instance that black people aren’t people will make them subhuman. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/69 "2010-04-09T15:44:43Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Yeah, I think you’ve got it backwards. The very concept of ‘the other’ in basic language implies inferiority. If I recall correctly, the greek root of ‘barbarian’ comes from some vague concept of ‘those losers who can’t even speak properly’. That implies strongly that those not a part of ones ‘tribe, city, family’ or whatever are NOT as valuable as those who are and could therefore be inferior and then could be enslaved downstream. > > There’s no justification needed if the basic concepts in ones head spell out the other’s inferiority. The concept of the “barbarian” has been known since antiquity. It has been used by various “civilized” Empires or powers to essentially refer to _the rest of the world_. The upper class that marched with Alexander genuinely viewed _the entire world as barbaric and open for conquest._ Likewise, Romans considered everyone barbarians, even the Carthaginians, who were as civilized and advanced as the Romans themselves. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/70 "2010-04-09T15:48:33Z")
I think this is a fascinating debate, and hope to take part in it later when I have more time. I just want to chime and say that I tend to think of these things as pre-Darwin and post-Darwin. I believe his ideas turned conventional thinking about humans upside down, and set the stage for a scientific understanding that we are all “equal”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/71 "2010-04-09T15:48:57Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Irrelevant, since I think we both have established most people weren’t reasonable until every recently. It’s not irrelevant since that’s the question in the OP. Not “when would people as they actually were” have disapproved of slavery; but reasonable ones. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > First, cite? People who bothered to explain the morality of their actions were the exception, not the rule. If you can prove otherwise I’ll be very enlightened. I already mentioned the example of declaring local people to be cannibals to justify enslaving them. Really; when haven’t people made up stories demonizing other people in order to justify their actions against them? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/72 "2010-04-09T15:49:13Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > If enough people want changes and can make a compelling case for them using facts and reason, they’ve achieved a defensible standard of reasonableness. I agree. > [@](#): > > Societies evolve. Deal with it. And I agree. But it seems as though you’re arguing my thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/73 "2010-04-09T15:51:21Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > Because abortion occurs before a meaningful “self” has developed, the question doesn’t apply. Newborn babies do not have any more of a sense of self than an 8 month fetus. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/74 "2010-04-09T15:52:49Z")
Isn’t that what I said, Martin? And the concept that ‘the other’ isn’t worth thinking about is still with us in many forms. Even such things as sports team allegiance has a great deal of that in it! > [@](#): > > **By emacknight** - I see this as the free parking fallacy. If there is slavery and it is legal, people will have to use it, evil or not. I may not like it, but if everyone else has free labour how am I suppose to compete, this cotton isn’t going to pick itself. I’m not a hypocrite if I’m simply playing by the rules establish. That’s very deterministic and I find I disagree. You’re positing here that one has to play within the rules of one’s society and I agree. But making something legal and accepted doesn’t mean that it is required. I would be deeply surprised if any society had a majority of households with slaves. With no data (forgive me) I would see Ashoka’s decree as really only impacting the classes with the wherewithal to own and maintain slaves. To the hoi polloi I can’t see them doing more than shrugging and getting on with their lives. Also, your assumption that slaves are ‘free labor’ is a fallacy, I think. Even if one thinks of slaves as livestock they are expensive, as with horses and such, to maintain. Feed, housing, land for housing, health care, supervision and so forth don’t come cheaply or freely. And not providing such only means that to maintain your ‘herd’ (God help me) will be even more costly. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/75 "2010-04-09T15:53:59Z")
I still think that if we’re going to look back through history for a point in time, we should at least establish that exists currently. As an example, think about the evolution (or creation) of a bat. We could have a debate about when in history a bird became a bat, and go on and on about wings and abortion. But a bat isn’t a bird, so that point in time is a stupid thing to look for. The question is **DOES** a reasonable person know slavery is evil? Is this even true today? If we can’t establish it as current, there is not point looking at people in the 18th century. Oh, and fuck off with the abortion non-human bullshit, not even remotely constructive. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/76 "2010-04-09T15:54:15Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I didn’t, and I officially inform you of my intention to pout about it. 🙂 Whoops. Er… the sun got in my eyes. Yeah, that’s it. The sun. Sorry. Right you are – your post, too, did not fall into that category. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/77 "2010-04-09T15:55:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The question is a red herring; opposition to abortion has nothing to do with protecting anyone. You seem to use the term “red herring” an awful lot to dismiss argument taht you don’t want to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/78 "2010-04-09T15:59:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You seem to use the term “red herring” an awful lot to dismiss argument taht you don’t want to deal with. As I said before, stop getting side tracked with abortion nonsense. We all know where it leads. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/79 "2010-04-09T15:59:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The difference is, I am objectively right, and you are objectively wrong. No amount of insistence that an embryo is a person will make it one; and no amount of instance that black people aren’t people will make them subhuman. That’s what you think, and there is nothing that will ever change your mind so I’ll apologize for mentioning abortion and we can stop derailing this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513/80 "2010-04-09T16:06:18Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > And you certainly wouldn’t have wanted your parents to have used a condom at the time of your conception, either. That should be outlawed, too. > > In fact, so should abstinence and male masturbation. > > Every sperm is _sacred_… every sperm is _great_… If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-in-human-history-should-a-reasonable-person-have-known-slavery-was-evil/535513.md?page=5)