When in human history should a reasonable person have known slavery was evil?

There’s an example a lot closer to home. Slavery has not ended in the United States - the 13th Amendment restricted slavery, it didn’t prohibit it.

And this is not just some archaic legalism like the 3rd Amendment. Slavery is still widely practiced in the United States.

If you’re sentenced to prison, part of your sentence is almost certainly going to include being forced to do whatever work you are ordered to do. So there are a couple of million people in this country who, for all legal purposes, are slaves.

So when you ask how people in 1850 could possibly have been blind to what was happening in their midst, keep in mind that in another century or two, people may be asking the same thing about us.

Pointing out its irrelevancy is hardly arguing in favor of it.

Is there a difference at all between indentured servitude and slavery? I guess not really.

So yes, the people in prison are slaves. Do I think that because they’re slaves, they should be set free? Of course not. But I think you’re correct. I’ve heard this argument made IRL and people like to hum and haw, “well, they’re not really slaves, you see, because of this and that,” but in reality, they are slaves.

Well, except they’re paid. Regardless, it’s forced work.

Are drafted soldiers slaves?

I’d argue yes. It’s part of being a male American citizen, but it’s still slavery.

The crucial difference is that your children were not considered indentured servants despite being born to someone who was.

A completely separate question but one that I have wondered before; how much of the fight over slavery was one of “right v wrong” and how much was a sordid sort of the sour grapes scenario?

While not just the south employed the usage of slavery, they were by far the most prevalent. With the way the North/South split happened, how much of it was based upon the North’s non-need of slavery?

Are you suggesting that northerners disliked slavery only because they themselves didn’t have slaves?

Slavery doesn’t have to be hereditary to be slavery, and chattel slavery isn’t the only kind of slavery in existance.

I’m suggesting it might have ties to both, it being morally wrong AND the fact that the resulting loss of slavery would have severe political impact.

Maybe I am jaded with today’s political ideologies, but I could see the North wanting a leg up in future elections.

nm

Have we reached a conclusion here? I’m starting to feel that a reasonable American wouldn’t have known slavery was evil until quite recently, considering the difficulties with segregation and labour standards over seas.

Worse still, we don’t even have a conclusive establishment that slavery IS evil even today. What is evil? What is slavery?

As far as I can tell, evil is merely a social construct, certainly not something Locke would lump in with natural rights. Do we have his opinion on the subject?

For each enlightened individual that believes without question that slavery is evil, there is an equal but opposite theory put forth that it’s simply a matter of social norms, in that it’s only evil by today’s standards.

I liken it a lot to smoking. Why do people still smoke? Is it because they are unaware of the harmful side effects? Could we say that a reasonable person today is aware of the effects of smoking? But then each individual smoker will have his/her own construct that justifies the action. In 50 years are we going to look at them and laugh?

It’s pretty hard to imagine that a person in the 18th century could look at a slave without being aware of the suffering, and at least in some way think it’s wrong. But then again, maybe we’re giving them too much credit. Look around today and it’s the same shit. People construct their own reality, and happily justify it to themselves.

A guy has no problem convincing a young girl to strap on a bomb and walk into a cafe full of babies. For every act of shear and absolute evil, there is someone ready to justify it.

Evil is a word used to describe something you don’t want done to you. Fuck everyone else.

Yup.

To my mind, the narrower question “when dshould a resonable person have known chattel slavery based on race was evil?” is a lot easier to answer.

I’m not even sure we’ve come to a determination of what is meant by the word “reasonable”. In legal contexts, it usually means something like an “average”, or “normal” person. In which case it could have been quite late in history, because I can imagine that for centuries the average person thought that slavery was the way of the world.

A couple points.

First, an “abolitionist” is simply someone who supports the abolition of slavery in their own country. They do not necessarily have to believe that slavery is evil. They might, for example, be a racist who wanted white workers to have the jobs which were performed by black slaves. Or they might have simply wanted all blacks expelled from the country, to cleanse it for white society, which could only have happened if their economic utility as slaves was removed. Or they may have felt that it was “evil” in a sense, but because of its effect on the slaveholder, not necessarily the slave.

All of these views were expressed at one time or another by white Americans between the War of Independence and the War Between the States. Lincoln subscribed to the first, at least for a time, though he was not originally (if we take him at his word) an abolitionist at all, but simply opposed to the expansion of slavery into new western territories.

Robert E. Lee, on the other hand, did “get it,” (at least in his own terms) as he came to view slavery as sinful (a view somewhat akin to the third outlook above), and eventually freed the slaves he had received from his wife’s family. (The Custis estate was mismanaged and in debt, making manumission difficult at first. Some former slaves chose to remain with the Lees as free servants.) In an 1856 letter, Lee said “slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil…their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy…we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers.”

Some people do believe that it is evil to use and abuse nonhumans, you know. I need not see a creature as equal to myself, to accord it rights.

Of course, slavery is possible without any racist element at all.

We should not forget that the mode of slavery most familiar to Americans–black slaves, white owners, with the roles of each immutable–was far from the only model. Many societies through history have had slavery that was not “racially” or ethnically based; slave and owner might be from the same ethnic population, or members of different ethnic populations in a region might have each had the potential to become slave or owner, depending on the vagaries of war and economics. Also, slaves in many systems had the opportunity or expectation of becoming free. (Slaves sometimes were freed in America too, but typically at the whim of an owner, rather than systematically.)

I would say that the owning of slaves by people who were themselves former slaves was not only evident in most (all?) slave societies, but in fact was typical and not particularly interesting to anyone involved.

In our modern perspective, we see slavery as a discrete category of relationship between two or more humans, without any possible redemptive element, utterly incomparable to any “free” system. But through most of human history, I think, slavery–in many different manifestations–were more like a collection of tiered relationships, not manifestly distinct from the many other kinds of relationships two people or groups might have. Being a “slave” of a certain sort, in a certain time and place, might well have been preferable to being a “free man” of another sort, at another time and place, for those involved.

The key difference here is that there is something that it feels like to be a slave. There’s nothing that it feels like to be an embryo, because they lack all capacity for sensation.

It took a while for coherent thought on the subject to catch up with people’s emotions, but I agree with those who say that it’s always been evil.

There are simply categories of things you would not want to happen to you for any reason. Once you realize that, you begin to recognize evil as those who would perpetuate that on others. Sure, when it doesn’t happen to you and you’re a douche bag, you can sit back, rationalize, and enjoy the benefits of those who are suffering. But you recognize evil

Enlightened men in the past may have had these thoughts, but once the masses realized it, that’s when you can point to the reasonable person and say there’s no excuse anymore, they should have known better.

Like it has already been mentioned, the Confederates get no leeway because they knew about rights, they knew about suffering, and they did not give up slavery voluntarily but had to be killed and threatened in order for them to relinquish their hold on slaves. And it took another hundred years for momentum to codify that no slavery also meant no discrimination.

And you want us to excuse some people living in 2010 in America for promoting the Confederates? These people should know better. They are wrong and evil for doing anything to lessen the evils of the Confederacy

  1. Define slavery. The US military still has contracts that are almost (but not quite) indentured servitude.
  2. If we define slavery to mean forced servitude with no consent of the servant and (this is important) imposed on an innocent rather than as a condition of criminal penalty; then I would say a reasonable person might have known *such *slavery was evil once they’d experienced it as slaves, or developed enough empathy for those in such a lot.

This is true, which is why I have a more lenient view towards infanticide than most people have. If we are to treat animals and humans as being different, there must be some kind of objective criteria to base that on. Otherwise, it seems to me to be simply a matter of speciesism (like racism except against other species).

Why treat human fetuses as different from chimpanzee fetuses? If I showed you a picture of each, they look pretty much the same, and share more than 99% of the same DNA. It can’t simply be DNA that gives a living entity rights, it has to be some quality that humans have and other animals don’t.

What humans have that other species lack is metacognition. Other species are aware, but we’re the only ones we know of that are aware of our own awareness.

I think, if we want to be morally consistent (which is a tall order) in how we treat homo sapiens and other animals, full personhood shouldn’t be recognized in humans until they develop self awareness. There’s definitely going to be some practical difficulty in pinpointing that time because it can vary from individual to individual, but it’s probably sometime between 2 and 3 years. Before that time, it should be acceptable to treat infants like we would similarly situated animals: inflicting cruelty is prohibited, but it’s not prohibited to kill them.

Why are earth are you talking about abortion? We’re talking about slavery, feel free to join us.

My answer is that any reasonable person should have known it, but that most people (even today) aren’t reasonable. Most people lack the capacity or willingness to break out of the mold of the society in which they are raised and subject their beliefs to rigorous scrutiny. It’s why most people born into a certain religion remain in that religion as adults, not because they exhaustively researched every possibility and found it to be the right one, but because it’s what they’re accustomed to believing.

No, because convincing yourself that blacks aren’t human qualifies you as unreasonable. The South WAS unreasonable.