# When is a Catholic no longer a Catholic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 5, 2012, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846 "2012-03-05T19:15:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/121 "2012-03-24T15:07:42Z")
> [@](#): > > I tagged along to Christmas mass with some friends and raised a lot of eyebrows by declining the Eucharist. Hmm, is there no tradition of crossing the arms over the chest to receive a blessing? I went to mass with a Hindu friend once and a lady usher in the Church encouraged him to receive the Eucharist despite not having his Communion training. I told him he wouldn’t have to receive the Eucharist or a blessing at all and I thought it’d be more disrespectful to just go “well, you’ll be saved now even if you don’t fully grasp the nature of the sacrament”, which seems to be attempting to fool oneself, God and the priest… Anyway, thanks for the correction on the church/extraordinary thing. ---
**Author:** ![Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Hazle\_Weatherfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazle_Weatherfield)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/122 "2012-03-24T17:11:37Z")
I just can’t believe that she would give the cracker to her Mom after it had been in an ashtray. An ASHTRAY! Even a fairly clean ashtray has remnants of ashes in it. Yuck! ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/123 "2012-03-24T21:42:13Z")
> [@florez](#): > > In my opinion, Johanna’s behavior toward the host, was not disrespectful. > To refuse the host at her grandmother’s funeral would have been disrespectful. > Johanna put it in her pocket and showed her ex, who did disrespect it, by putting it into an ashtray. > Again, she shows respect by saving the host from being in the ashtray. > To leave it in there would have been disrespectful. > Later, Johanna offers the host to her mom, who fully accepts the idea that the host is sacred. > The Mom appreciates her daughter’s respect for Mom’s beliefs, knowing that Johanna does not agree with these beliefs. > This to me would be a great sign of respect coming from my own daughter. That she respects my beliefs without accepting them herself. > It seems to me, that Johanna went above and beyond in her attempt to show respect for a homophobic, and misogynistic religion, that in her own words is 'inimical toward women and the LGBT Community". No refusing the host isn’t disrespectful at all. Its expected for practicing Catholics if you are not in a state to receive the host. A pocket is not a respectful place to store a host. She should have just turned it down. Saintly Loser is right on this one. Johanna may have intended no disrespect, but the correct thing to do is to simply turn down the host. The second thing to have done is to have consumed the host, knowing that she didn’t believe, but out of respect for her own relatives - a technique known by “recovering Catholics” as “faking it so Grandma can die in peace.” The last thing she should have done was to accept the host and stick it in her pocket. Its sort of comparable to an American flag. If a Canadian friend comes into possession of an American flag for some odd reason, the respectful thing to do is to give it to someone else who will make use of it and wants it. Properly disposing of it would be a second choice. You do not unwrap it, wad it into a ball, leave it on the floor for a few days, before throwing it on top of diapers in the trash. Its frankly sort of shocking that someone who was given “the full Catholic treatment” wouldn’t know that you can just turn down the host or believe she was showing any respect by stashing it in a pocket. ---
**Author:** ![ClintO](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b5ac83/32.png) [@ClintO](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ClintO)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/124 "2012-03-24T22:04:50Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I would suggest that the Catholic hierarchy decide who’s a member. Obviously they don’t want to excommunicate \*everyone \*who ignores their dictates (someone has to pay for all those gold hats), but if they’re still willing to pass out the grape juice and crackers to you that has to count for something. Last time I checked, They use real wine during mass. While in high school, we would be the servers during mass and afterwards we would partake to rid of the previous nights hangover… recovering catholic ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/125 "2012-03-24T23:32:40Z")
What I want to know is if there’s a master list of RCC members somewhere in the Vatican. My (former) local diocese had my name as going to a Catholic school, and my parents were members of the diocese. And perhaps they added me to some additional list when I got Confirmed. If that kind of info gets passed up the chain, then it would seem the only way to officially not be Catholic any more is to take whatever steps are needed to get taken off the list. OTOH, if data like that ISN’T passed up the chain, then the church hierarchy has no real idea who it’s members are, other than the paid hierarchy itself. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/126 "2012-03-25T02:59:30Z")
When he’s a “Postate”? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/127 "2012-03-25T04:30:28Z")
It was fully my intention to behave with decorum at my grandmother’s funeral. Prophet Muhammad said, “Actions are according to intentions.” I made a split-second decision when the host was thrust at me what to do about it. For the sake of appearances, yes I might have just munched it down, except I believed that would be disrespectful to the sacredness of it because I’m a heathen infidel and that wouldn’t be proper according to how I’d been raised. I was, frankly, shy to be seen refusing it, because it was thrust right upside my face and if my relatives had seen me refuse it, they might be distracted away from the solemnity of the moment to wonder what was wrong with me and had I turned into a heathen infidel or what. For the sake of appearances. Because I’d been taught you should not bring “scandal” in front of the believers. Yes, of course it’s true that I could have refused it politely. But being put on the spot like that, since I was in the frontmost pew, I felt very conspicuous and I had only a split second to decide what to do. In retrospect, the decision I reached in almost a panic may not have been the best option, but I was sincerely trying to do the right thing. Nobody saw me stash it because I had my head bent over and my hands up in front of my face. Although your distinctly _uncharitable_ attitude in judging me so harshly, and in misreading my story in the worst possible light, does help remind me why I felt I didn’t belong in that religion and was right to have quit it so many years before, thank you. I was frankly shocked when my ex grabbed it out of my hand and threw it away. (There had never been any ashes in the tray, because nobody ever smoked in my car.) As I said, I scolded my ex for doing so. How you could misinterpret my story as to think I was trying to hand it off to someone with no respect is beyond me. I was only trying to teach my ex, who was completely unfamiliar with Catholicism and had never been in a church before, a little about the religion by showing and explaining it. **Nava** understood this perfectly, so I don’t know how you could have twisted my narrative so wrongly. > [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Or maybe you’re whooshing us. WTF is with the people here that whenever anyone tells anything about their life that’s the least bit out of the ordinary, they’re accused of making it up? Why the fuck would I make up a story like that? You just called me a liar. I very much doubt that calling someone a liar is permissible in this forum GD. Anyway, however rightly or wrongly I may have acted, my purpose of not bringing scandal at a solemn occasion and of making my mother happy was achieved. (Remember the fourth commandment?) You gave me an insult, in return I give you a prayer: may your actions be as charitable and your conscience as clear as mine. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/128 "2012-03-25T04:49:02Z")
Whoops, I meant **florez** rather than **Nava**. Sorry, **florez**. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/129 "2012-03-25T05:12:06Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Whoops, I meant **florez** rather than **Nava**. Sorry, **florez**. I think it is a case of my being able to put myself into your shoes here Johanna. I could see the same thing happening to me, and reacting to the situation ad lib, and without meaning to cause a fuss at a solemn affair. Then going with the flow, with good intentions, no disrespect intended. You did not have to share the experience, but you did, and as an ex Catholic myself, I was not surprised by the response. I have not considered myself to be Catholic for many years, but if memory serves, you should be overcome with guilt for doing a very very bad thing.😉 ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/130 "2012-03-25T12:01:10Z")
Oh yeah, if I recall correctly, there has to be volition for something to be considered a sin anyway. The volition: willful act against God (or mens rea) was clearly not present here. In fact, Johanna was going completely out of her way in an attempt to please everyone, there’s no need for recriminations. Gently pointing out the correct course of action is more than sufficient. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/131 "2012-03-25T16:17:11Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > It was fully my intention to behave with decorum at my grandmother’s funeral. . I know. You’ll notice that my post started with “I do not doubt that respect is one of your core values at all.” > [@Johanna](#): > > Because I’d been taught you should not bring “scandal” in front of the believers. So was I. And I remember that “scandal” has a very particular meaning in Church terminology, which I don’t think applies here. > [@Johanna](#): > > Although your distinctly _uncharitable_ attitude in judging me so harshly, and in misreading my story in the worst possible light, does help remind me why I felt I didn’t belong in that religion and was right to have quit it so many years before, thank you. My reading of your story wasn’t uncharitable. Quite the opposite. As I said at the beginning of my post, I believe that you intended to act respectfully. I think you misunderstood what would constitute “respect” in this context. An uncharitable reading of your story would have been to assume you knew perfectly well what was expected at communion, but didn’t give a shit, and put the consecrated host in your pocket anyway. But that was not my reading of your story. The Church’s teaching on receiving communion and the proper treatment of the consecrated host is what it is. It is a fact that the Church teaches certain things (of course, the Church may be wrong, but that’s another discussion). You make not like, you may disagree with the Church’s teaching, but it’s still there, and I pointed that out. > [@Johanna](#): > > . . .I don’t know how you could have twisted my narrative so wrongly. I didn’t twist your narrative at all. I understood the sequence of events perfectly. It is true that you and I disagree on what constitutes acting “respectfully” in this context. > [@Johanna](#): > > WTF is with the people here that whenever anyone tells anything about their life that’s the least bit out of the ordinary, they’re accused of making it up? Why the fuck would I make up a story like that? You just called me a liar. I very much doubt that calling someone a liar is permissible in this forum GD. Nonsense. I certainly did not call you a liar or accuse you of “making up” your story. In reading your post, I was struck by the apparent contradiction of, on the one hand, having had “[e]ighteen solid years of formal Catholic indoctrination,” and on the other hand, not knowing the proper protocol for receiving or not receiving communion, and not knowing that removing the consecrated host from the church is a big no-no. Anyway, I didn’t think you made the story up (and nothing in my post indicates that I did). I did think it was a (somewhat remote) possibility that you were trying to make some kind of point about the implausibility of the Church’s teaching on transubstantiation or something. Apparently you weren’t. > [@Johanna](#): > > \*\*Anyway, however rightly or wrongly I may have acted, my purpose of not bringing scandal at a solemn occasion and of making my mother happy was achieved. (Remember the fourth commandment?) You gave me an insult, in return I give you a prayer: may your actions be as charitable and your conscience as clear as mine. If your purpose was to make your mother happy, and your conscience is clear, there’s no problem here, is there? I do, of course, remember the fourth commandment, and for the record, I did not receive communion at my mother’s funeral mass, because I knew that she would have been unhappy if I’d taken communion in what the Church would consider a state of unreadiness to receive communion. So you made your mother happy, and I acted in a way that would have made my mother happy. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/132 "2012-03-25T16:19:31Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Oh yeah, if I recall correctly, there has to be volition for something to be considered a sin anyway. The volition: willful act against God (or mens rea) was clearly not present here. In fact, Johanna was going completely out of her way in an attempt to please everyone, there’s no need for recriminations. Gently pointing out the correct course of action is more than sufficient. Absolutely true, and nowhere in my post did I claim that Johanna was committing a sin. There must be intent and understanding for sin, and I don’t think either was present in this case. Nonetheless, there was a definite misunderstanding of what would be “respect” of Catholic teaching and tradition concerning the Eucharist. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/133 "2012-03-25T19:26:00Z")
Heh, I remember in my grade school the altar boys (they were called altar boys back then instead of servers; it was so long ago that they hadn’t let girls start serving yet) walking around the playground at recess with a fistful of hosts they’d stolen from the sacristy, snacking on them like so many Cheetos. And offering to share them with me. Good little Catholic as I was then, I was properly _scandalized_. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/134 "2012-03-25T20:01:36Z")
OK, I will share one of my Catholic childhood memories. I remember my grandmother always took me to early mass before school. Then one day we attended a special mass during class, to pray before some shriveled bones, and I cannot remember whose bones they were. But the point is, I received holy communion twice in one day, as witnessed by the nun who took me aside, and made me feel like the world’s greatest sinner, for having done this horrible thing. I felt very bad about committing such a blasphemous act, and worried my little heart sick about the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/135 "2012-03-26T07:55:40Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Heh, I remember in my grade school the altar boys (they were called altar boys back then instead of servers; it was so long ago that they hadn’t let girls start serving yet) walking around the playground at recess with a fistful of hosts they’d stolen from the sacristy, snacking on them like so many Cheetos. And offering to share them with me. Good little Catholic as I was then, I was properly _scandalized_. …serving yet… in the US 😛 Unless you were born before the 16th century, in which case I hope you’ll start an Ask the… thread. And if they were stolen from the sacristy they were unconsecrated wafers; they were not Hosts. My mother’s parish gives out wafer cutouts to the kids after every Kiddie Mass, it’s one of the highlights of Sunday for the Nephew. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/136 "2012-03-26T14:50:36Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > …And if they were stolen from the sacristy they were unconsecrated wafers. Oh? And why are they kept in the sacresty then, if they are not sacred? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/137 "2012-03-26T15:11:08Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Oh? And why are they kept in the sacresty then, if they are not sacred? This is turning into a bit of a hijack-does anyone remember the other thread where we had a hot n’ heavy about communion wafers? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/138 "2012-03-26T15:15:23Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > Oh? And why are they kept in the sacresty then, if they are not sacred? A sacristy is like a chastity belt – something to protect the goodies until the right moment. IIRC from my ling ago altar boy days, Nava is correct. The priest blesses the wafers shortly before the service. No idea why… do blessing spoil or go bad? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/139 "2012-03-26T15:23:22Z")
[This](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_akYdDIqYiE) is why they don’t do pre-blessings. ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846/140 "2012-03-26T18:26:26Z")
So does anyone on SDMB have specifics on a no holy communions twice in one day rule? I think I was all of eight years old, at the time I unintentionally violated this rule. And from what I remember, I think I was told it was a sacrilege. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-catholic-no-longer-a-catholic/614846.md?page=8)