# When is a Covid-19 death NOT a Covid-19 death? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [April 6, 2020, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203 "2020-04-06T17:08:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/21 "2020-04-07T14:02:50Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > It’s a tongue-in-cheek question, as I know exactly why he did it. There’s a certain narrative ringing around the the stupid-sphere that deaths are being misclassified to inflate the COVID count, and a certain type of person who is so excited about body-slamming the libs that they get a bad case of selective reading and motivated reasoning. **Moderator Note** Keep the political commentary out of this forum. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/22 "2020-04-07T14:14:38Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > For example [THIS](https://www.wgal.com/article/7-week-old-baby-in-connecticut-diagnosed-with-coronavirus-dies/32019329#) case in Connecticut an infant died from another cause, maybe trauma or abuse, but is officially listed as Covid 19 due to the baby having it. **Moderator Instructions** As has been pointed out, there is nothing in that article that indicates the infant “died of another cause,” and no mention of trauma or abuse. I’m instructing you that if you are going to quote news articles that you read them fully and describe them accurately. Otherwise, don’t bother posting about them. There’s enough misinformation out there not to contribute further to it. If you do something like this again, you may be subject to a warning for violating moderator instructions. Colibri Quarantine Zone Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/23 "2020-04-07T14:27:34Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > This is definitely where the alt-right are going to go with COVID-19. They know Trump has botched the COVID-19 response, and so they have to come up with some to explain Dear Leader’s apparent failure. And that will be, he didn’t fail at all. The deaths are fake or inflated. There are still people running around saying the whole thing is a hoax. Among other conspiracy theories, like 5G networks cause it. Good grief. Sometimes it makes you wonder if it would be best if humanity did get wiped out. We’re so stupid. And if Hillary had been in charge and we had the same results we are seeing now, what would the celebrities, the MSM, and all the left be doing now? Lets be honest, politics gets into everything. BTW, I dont defend Trump. Every country in the world is having trouble dealing with this. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/24 "2020-04-07T14:29:40Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > \*\* > > Indeed. I’d like an answer to that too. I read the article, which is not very long at all and I don’t see where he got any of the claims he made. Well, one. Apparently a baby did die. > > We, as a board fighting ignorance, should not allow this sort of blatant misrepresentation. ok, I misread the article. I found better information on another site but then couldnt find that article. However I think my point is how will they determine if a person dies of covid 19 or some other cause? ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/25 "2020-04-07T14:43:03Z")
At the moment a Covid-19 death is pretty easy. Pneumonia for a start, and a positive test for the virus. Sure, there is a tiny bit of wiggle room for someone with say a very significant underlying condition, maybe that got them first. But it isn’t hard to be reasonably definitive. As time goes on there may be deaths from other modes of attack from the virus. There is a murmur of worry that the virus may attack the heart. I’d take that as a just maybe right now. Later deaths of people with impaired lung function due to the virus may be harder. If someone is pretty beaten up after a bad time with the virus, and they die a year later of lung disease, where do you place the blame? But right now, probably the only confusion might be if someone presents with Covid-19 and another nasty condition, and is not doing well with either. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/26 "2020-04-07T14:58:20Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > And if Hillary had been in charge and we had the same results we are seeing now, what would the celebrities, the MSM, and all the left be doing now? Lets be honest, politics gets into everything. **Moderator Warning** Since I just gave instructions only two posts above to keep politics out of this forum, I’m making this is an official warning. Colibri Quarantine Zone Moderator ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/27 "2020-04-07T14:58:51Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > ok, I misread the article. I found better information on another site but then couldnt find that article. > > However I think my point is how will they determine if a person dies of covid 19 or some other cause? The same way they determine if someone died of the flu or some other cause - it’s not like this is an issue that just appeared with the corona virus. The fact that someone had coronary artery disease or high blood pressure doesn’t mean that having the flu wasn’t the straw that broke the camel’s back and the same thing goes for Covid-19. It’s not like death certificates can only include one single cause of death - see [these](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/blue_form.pdf) instructions for completing a death certificate. ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/28 "2020-04-07T16:23:39Z")
Actually, it seems like it might be opposite to this. That is, [COVID-19 deaths might be underreported.](https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/06/health/us-coronavirus-death-count-cdc-explainer/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Carryon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Carryon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carryon)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/29 "2020-04-07T17:42:10Z")
I find the same thing with HIV/AIDS. When is the last time you heard of HIV/AIDS being even a cofactor in the death of anyone? I suppose it’s possible, but there are times when someone is dead, it’s thought just let the dead lie and don’t worry about it, providing there is no criminal activity. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/30 "2020-04-07T18:21:45Z")
Even if the article contained the purported information, it would still be highly suspect: Family are, on average, not neutral observers, nor a reliable source of information about what really caused a death. An example well known to me: My sister-in-law and I have two very different versions of what caused my brother’s death. She would tell you he died of kidney cancer, which was, in fact, the proximal cause…it may even appear on his death certificate, which I have not seen. This ignores the fact that he had minimal liver function, and impaired kidney function undoubtedly due to a lifetime of alcohol abuse and heavy smoking. Less than a year before his death, both his kidneys and liver had completely shut down, and family was summoned to see him off. With heroic medical interventions he rallied for a few months, and was trying to make lifestyle changes to allow him to be placed on a transplant list. It is likely that the cancer was provoked by the damage he’d done to his kidneys over the years, and due to almost no liver function he couldn’t tolerate the chemo that likely would have dealt with the cancer. So my version is that he died of complications associated with alcoholism…or as I usually put it, he drank himself to death. No he didn’t die of acute alcohol poisoning, but I have no doubt that it was the drink that did him in. This is of course an anecdote, not data…just like the claims found in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/31 "2020-04-07T18:53:54Z")
> [@Carryon](#): > > I find the same thing with HIV/AIDS. When is the last time you heard of HIV/AIDS being even a cofactor in the death of anyone? I suppose it’s possible, but there are times when someone is dead, it’s thought just let the dead lie and don’t worry about it, providing there is no criminal activity. AIDS deaths are still happening, even though they aren’t in the news any more. People keep track of all sorts of causes of death - for example there were 20 deaths by lightning in the US in 2019. Here are the names of the victims [U.S. Lightning Deaths in 2019: 20](https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-fatalities19) ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/32 "2020-04-07T19:58:58Z")
I’ve reviewed thousands of death certificates. _ **All States are different** _, but they generally look like this: [ul] [li] **myocardial infarction - minutes** [/li][li] **End Stage Dementia - months** [/li][li] **Diabetes - years** [/li][/ul]**Other significant contributing factors: dysphagia (trouble swallowing); pneumonia; Congestive heart failure, hypertension**. \*\*See pg 2 on [Death Certificate/Cause of Death - Quick Fact Sheet](http://www.msdh.state.ms.us/phs/Cause_of_Death_Quick_Fact_Sheet.pdf) for an example. So what did the above person die of? Quite literally, loss of blood to their heart - that’s what caused them to go from alive to dead. However, that probably would not have happened if it weren’t for the advanced Dementia and Diabetes which helped cause the heart attack. It’s the same for cancer, it’s never THE event that caused the death, but it is obviously the underlying condition that resulted in their death and everyone would (fairly correctly) say the person died of cancer. I don’t see how Cov-19 is any different. It will not be the immediate cause of death, which is usually heart attack, or respiratory failure, etc; however it would certainly be an underlying cause of death (weeks/months). Should the person die in an actual car accident, and also have Cov-19, then Cov-19 should not be listed as a cause of death. The cause of death would just be blunt force trauma and nothing else listed (even if they had terminal cancer and days to live - it did not cause or contribute to that person’s death). The OP, whether real or not, would have died of a heart attack brought on by several underlying diseases, one of which was most likely Cov-19. If real, there would almost certainly be several underlying diseases that all helped result in the immediate cause of death. Lastly, one main point of death certificates is to track causes of death for statistics to help prevent those diseases in the future (prevent heart disease, diabetes, car wrecks). Here, we obviously want to know how many people died with Cov-19. We generally want to know on the Death Certificate the underlying diseases that contributed to the death versus what literally caused the person to go from alive to dead (outside of an autopsy/criminal setting, obviously). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/33 "2020-04-07T21:14:16Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > And if Hillary had been in charge and we had the same results we are seeing now, what would the celebrities, the MSM, and all the left be doing now? Lets be honest, politics gets into everything. > > BTW, I dont defend Trump. Every country in the world is having trouble dealing with this. It’s challenging for every country but some countries seem to have handled it a lot better: > **[South Korea COVID - Coronavirus Statistics - Worldometer](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/south-korea/)** > > South Korea Coronavirus update with statistics and graphs: total and new cases, deaths per day, mortality and recovery rates, current active cases, recoveries, trends and timeline. I shudder to think what would have happened if the stock market hadn’t crashed on March 12th. Would anything else have mobilized this country into taking action? What if the market had defied gravity for an extra week or two? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2020, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/34 "2020-04-07T21:19:11Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > This is definitely where the alt-right are going to go with COVID-19. They know Trump has botched the COVID-19 response, and so they have to come up with some to explain Dear Leader’s apparent failure. And that will be, he didn’t fail at all. The deaths are fake or inflated. There are still people running around saying the whole thing is a hoax. Among other conspiracy theories, like 5G networks cause it. Good grief. Sometimes it makes you wonder if it would be best if humanity did get wiped out. We’re so stupid. Unfortunately this is true. I keep running into skepticism that coronavirus is a real threat. Some people think that this is an attempt to intentionally ruin the economy for political reasons. Some people think that there wasn’t anything that we could have done better to prevent these coming deaths and the coming recession. Korea got through this without very many deaths and their economy will suffer more from the recession in America than any organic reduction due to COVID19 mitigation that occurred in Korea. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/35 "2020-04-09T13:31:45Z")
I think I’ve seen a report that heart attack deaths are well up in NYC. Doubled or Tripled. Am I remembering correctly? Has anyone else seen that? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/36 "2020-04-09T13:59:52Z")
My understanding is that regardless of how you got to death’s door, the official cause of death is what gave you that last push through the door. So if you were already sick, but COVID-19 gave you that final push, COVID-19 is your cause of death, not whatever pre-existing maladies you had that made it easy for the virus to finish you off. Caveat: my understanding is not from any scientific source, but just from a lifetime of reading the news, so if anyone’s got better info, I’m willing to stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/37 "2020-04-09T14:27:04Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I think I’ve seen a report that heart attack deaths are well up in NYC. Doubled or Tripled. Am I remembering correctly? Has anyone else seen that? What I’ve seen instead was mentioned in another thread here. [Fewer are being seen.](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/well/live/coronavirus-doctors-hospitals-emergency-care-heart-attack-stroke.html) > [@](#): > > The hospitals are eerily quiet, except for Covid-19. > > I have heard this sentiment from fellow doctors across the United States and in many other countries. We are all asking: Where are all the patients with heart attacks and stroke? … > > … We actually expected to see more heart attacks during this time. Respiratory infections typically increase the risk of heart attacks. Studies suggest that recent respiratory infections can double the risk of a heart attack or stroke. The risk seems to begin soon after the respiratory infection develops, so any rise in heart attacks or strokes should be evident by now. Of course they _could_ be dying at home. (Including some who would not have died if they hadn’t been too afraid of COVID-19 to come in.) Hard to know that though. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/38 "2020-04-09T14:33:43Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I think I’ve seen a report that heart attack deaths are well up in NYC. Doubled or Tripled. Am I remembering correctly? Has anyone else seen that? EMS is getting more than twice as many cardiac calls, and the percentage where the person the person can’t be resuscitated has also doubled ( which means the raw number of people that can’t be rescucitated is at least 4 times what it was) but it’s unclear how much of it is related to virus itself ( the viral infection gave the person the final push ) and how much of it is people avoiding calling an ambulance until the victim is closer to death. ETA And this is likely why hospitals are not seeing them - because EMS is not transporting people they can’t resuscitate > **[About all those sirens in New York City](https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cardiac-calls-911-new-york-city-surge-they-may-really-n1179286)** > > Fire Department data show ambulances are responding to a surge in fatal or near-fatal heart attacks suffered by New Yorkers whose true health issue may be COVID-19. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/39 "2020-04-09T14:42:50Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > My understanding is that regardless of how you got to death’s door, the official cause of death is what gave you that last push through the door. So if you were already sick, but COVID-19 gave you that final push, COVID-19 is your cause of death, not whatever pre-existing maladies you had that made it easy for the virus to finish you off. > Caveat: my understanding is not from any scientific source, but just from a lifetime of reading the news, so if anyone’s got better info, I’m willing to stand corrected. Sure, but I think the question people have is that say… an elderly person shows up to the hospital from a nursing home suffering from a bad infection, and they happen to test positive for COVID-19, but aren’t really experiencing bad symptoms for that- no ventilator, no respiratory distress, etc… If they die a few days later, is it from the infection, or the COVID-19? I’d lean toward the infection, with the COVID-19 as an additional factor, but it sounds like these days, they’d just get out the “COVID-19” rubber stamp and move on. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203/40 "2020-04-10T16:28:54Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Sure, but I think the question people have is that say… an elderly person shows up to the hospital from a nursing home suffering from a bad infection, and they happen to test positive for COVID-19, but aren’t really experiencing bad symptoms for that- no ventilator, no respiratory distress, etc… > > If they die a few days later, is it from the infection, or the COVID-19? I’d lean toward the infection, with the COVID-19 as an additional factor, but it sounds like these days, they’d just get out the “COVID-19” rubber stamp and move on. My WAG is that there might be a handful of cases like that, but not enough to nudge the numbers much. I’ll further WAG that they’re seriously outnumbered by the people who die of the coronavirus at home, don’t get hauled to the hospital, and don’t get included in the numbers of those who died of COVID-19. Pretty soon, we should have the actual number of deaths for March 2020 to compare with the normal range of deaths for March. Sure, that’ll include people who really, truly died of something else, and never even got infected with the virus. But that’ll be the best measurement of the true effect of COVID-19 in the U.S. so far. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-covid-19-death-not-a-covid-19-death/851203.md?page=1)