# When is a 'double-negative' bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 21, 2007, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908 "2007-05-21T10:06:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Yag\_Rannavach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/858c86/32.png) [@Yag\_Rannavach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yag_Rannavach)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/21 "2007-05-21T23:05:36Z")
I don’t know nothin’ about no birthin’ of no babies? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/22 "2007-05-21T23:18:33Z")
Also, There are two different kinds of double negatives in play: - ‘I don’t know nothing’, actually meaning ‘I don’t know anything’ and - ‘There’s never nothing to do’, meaning exactly what it says - ‘There is always something to do’ [QUOTE=RealityChuck] And, even written, “I don’t know nothing about birthing babies” makes its meaning abundantly clear. [/QUOTE] Yes, _that specific example_ is arguably pretty unambiguous, but I don’t think it’s by any means a rule that the meanings of doubly-negative statements are always abundantly clear in print. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/23 "2007-05-21T23:19:26Z")
Straight man: “Isn’t it intersting how a double negative is a positive, but a duble positive isn’t a negative!” Wiseacre: “Yeah…yeah…” ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/24 "2007-05-21T23:21:09Z")
Sometimes, a double negative does **not** have the same meaning as the contrasting positive statement. For example: I never said I wasn’t a jerk. Does not mean: I said I was a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/25 "2007-05-22T00:25:00Z")
Including the line spoken by Prissy, other classics wouldn’t be the same without a DN. _Ain’t no sunshine when she’s gone_. I doubt any other phrasing by Bill Withers would carry the same emotion. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/26 "2007-05-22T05:36:17Z")
[QUOTE=danceswithcats] Including the line spoken by Prissy, other classics wouldn’t be the same without a DN. _Ain’t no sunshine when she’s gone_. I doubt any other phrasing by Bill Withers would carry the same emotion. [/QUOTE] I actually wrote a song called “There is a distinct lack of sunlight when she’s absent” shortly before Bill Withers came out with his version. Never took off, and now look who’s rolling in dough and who’s living in a studio apartment. (I’ll give you a hint, I’m the second one) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 8:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/27 "2007-05-22T08:49:25Z")
Actually, I’m gonna go out on a limb here and say that ‘rarely not here’ **is** a double negative, just a quantitative one, rather than absolute. Consider this list of words: [ul] [li]Always[/li][li]Usually[/li][li]Often[/li][li]Sometimes[/li][li]Occasionally[/li][li]Rarely[/li][li]Seldom[/li][li]Never[/li][/ul] _Always_ is absolute positive, _Never_ is absolute negative, but _Seldom_ and _Rarely_ are also negatives, just quantitative rather than absolute. So I contend that ‘rarely not here’, while it may not be _linguistically_ double-negative, is _ **conceptually** _ double-negative, albeit not absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Ragiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6de8d8/32.png) [@Ragiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ragiel)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2007, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/28 "2007-05-22T16:24:14Z")
And, of course, on behalf of the rhetoricians among us: > **[litotes](https://www.thefreedictionary.com/litotes)** > > Definition, Synonyms, Translations of litotes by The Free Dictionary It’s respectable. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![9Kphalak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/5e9695/32.png) [@9Kphalak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9Kphalak)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/29 "2012-11-21T03:54:13Z")
apparently “rarely” is negative. So, your quote should not be used. In addition, we all want to be completely understood. Your quote allows some misunderstanding by some people, therefore it would be better to rephrase. How about, “I’m rarely absent from work on Mondays.” This only my non expert opinion. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/30 "2012-11-21T06:35:48Z")
Ain’t never a good time to revive a zombie. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rack-a-Bones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rack-a-Bones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rack-a-Bones)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/31 "2012-11-21T10:37:28Z")
I can’t believe I don’t disagree. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/32 "2012-11-21T10:45:23Z")
Intentional double negatives (that make a positive) are not incorrect, but they are potentially problematic and ambiguous. The trouble is that it may be hard for your listener to tell whether you are speaking logically and correctly, and so intend a positive, or you have made a slip and intend the sentence as a whole negatively. Although they can sometimes be used to good effect (as litotes, for instance), it is usually wise to avoid them where possible. ---
**Author:** ![Rack-a-Bones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rack-a-Bones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rack-a-Bones)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/33 "2012-11-21T10:50:16Z")
Have I been whooshed? anyone can quote from Elements of Style or whatever. Or nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/34 "2012-11-21T14:12:21Z")
There was another thread about double-negatives almost 3 years ago. In my post there I mentioned a sentence with a quadruple-negative that I had to read carefully when I came across it in a newspaper: > [@Double negatives make a positive! No, they don't!](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/double-negatives-make-a-positive-no-they-dont/528150/17): > > There are many examples where a negative is actually an emphatic _positive_: > "Wow, isn’t that girl pretty?’ > “Isn’t she!” > > There are also examples where a sentence has three or more negatives and _does indeed_ conform to the rule that a negative is intended if and only if the total number of negatives is an _odd_ number. (Am I the only one that sometimes has to stop and actually count the negatives to understand the meaning of such a sentence?) An example, paraphrased, from a N.Y. Times editorial is the sentence: > > In a court case brought by environmentalists against the coal mining industry the judge found that the defendant had failed to demonstrate the damage would not be irreversible. > Not counting “damage” this clause has four negatives (failed, not, ir-, -revers); thus it _affirms_ the environmental damage. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Doom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Dr\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Doom)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/35 "2012-11-21T14:50:44Z")
This is a most non-heinous thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/36 "2012-11-21T15:11:08Z")
> [@Lobsang](#): > > In the context it was being said, I should have said “I am rarely off work on a monday” In fact, I bet you said, “I’m rarely \*not \*here on Monday,” which makes it acceptable by emphasizing the “not” part. Even if you didn’t emphasize it much, tone should make it clear that it is not a double negative in the bad sense. It’s fine as long as you mean it and others can be expected to get what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Dano83860](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a4c791/32.png) [@Dano83860](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dano83860)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/37 "2012-11-21T16:07:15Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > Straight man: “Isn’t it intersting how a double negative is a positive, but a duble positive isn’t a negative!” > > Wiseacre: “Yeah…yeah…” Yeah right. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/38 "2012-11-21T16:21:39Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Ain’t never a good time to revive a zombie. 😛 Especially when you don’t have nothing to add to the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/39 "2012-11-21T16:34:42Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > So I contend that ‘rarely not here’, while it may not be _linguistically_ double-negative, is _ **conceptually** _ double-negative, albeit not absolutely. I know it’s old, but rarely is, linguistically speaking, negative. For one, it collocates with ever, not never. For another, only negative clauses can take on constituents headed by not even while positive clauses cannot. \*I eat oatmeal every day, not even maple and brown sugar! I never eat oatmeal every day, not even maple and brown sugar! I rarely eat oatmeal every day, not even maple and brown sugar! ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908/40 "2012-11-21T17:08:12Z")
I agree that it’s not a double negative, but it is cumbersome and requires the listener to spend extra time detangling the sentence to extract your meaning. I’d prefer “I’m rarely absent on Mondays.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-double-negative-bad/404908.md?page=1)