# When is a man's home his castle? Eg, the Earl in \[the real\] "Downtown Abbey" pile **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 5, 2016, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192 "2016-01-05T00:36:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/21 "2016-01-05T15:04:59Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > It’s [Highclere Castle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highclere_Castle) near Newbury in Berkshire I grew up near there. > > There is no particular convention over what is a house, castle or palace AFAIK, just local habit. While we’re nitpicking, although Highclere Castle is near Newbury (which is in Berkshire), the house itself, along with Highclere village, is definitely in _Hampshire_ (my home county). ITV got it wrong on the credits of every single episode, for six series. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/22 "2016-01-05T16:31:10Z")
> [@upend](#): > > “Last night watched a documentary on the Earl of something (great grandfather luckily married a Rothschild, used money to back King Tut discovery), and, specifically his house, the set for much of Downtown Abbey. (I’ve never seen an episode of the TV show. )” > > Wealthy Americans have saved many a British Castle/house/palace (etc) over the past 150 years. It’s all very well being Aristocratic but if all you have is a big house you are the ultimate Asset rich;cash poor. Nitpick: the Rothschilds came to the UK by way of Germany in the 18th century, not the US. But it’s certainly true to say that Americans have saved many country piles in the UK either by marriage of purchase (as well as enthusiastically pillaging the ones whose holdings were sold off). ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/23 "2016-01-05T16:50:35Z")
In many cases the owners of castles pulled them down once they were of no military value after the Civil War and built something more comfortable and convenient to live in, and took the castle name with them. Victorian newly-minted capitalists called their baronial hall a ‘castle’, and added some vaguely battlement-like crenellations, because that was their idea of what the English gentleman was supposed to live in. And there are also Iron Age earthworks termed ‘castles’ such as Maiden Castle and Cadbury Castle, which were never castles in the conventional sense (just as any earthwork of unknown age got labelled ‘Caesar’s Camp’) ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/24 "2016-01-05T17:35:07Z")
> [@APB](#): > > As to why Downton is an “Abbey”, quite a few English country houses are called that (or more rarely a “Priory”), because they had been monasteries until Henry VIII’s Dissolution of the Monasteries. The obvious real-life example would be Woburn Abbey, the principal country house of the Duke of Bedford. The [Dissolution of the Monasteries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Monasteries) of 1536-1541 sometimes resulted in the conversion of a religious building to a nonreligious purpose, but often the building was demolished leaving just a name behind, e.g., Blackfriars in the City of London, where there is nothing left of the monastery owned by the Black Friars, i.e., Dominicans. A notorious case is the burial site of King Richard III, who was buried circa 1485 in the Church of the Grey Friars (i.e., Franciscans) in Leicester. About a century later, the church was demolished, leaving just “Greyfriars” as a street name, and eventually the body of the former king was found under a car park. To find a “downtown abbey” in the City of London, read [The lost abbeys and priories of the City of London](http://inspiringcity.com/2014/05/28/the-lost-abbeys-and-priories-of-the-city-of-london-part-1-from-the-tower-to-bedlam-and-beyond/). ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/25 "2016-01-05T18:42:36Z")
> [@upend](#): > > “Last night watched a documentary on the Earl of something (great grandfather luckily married a Rothschild, used money to back King Tut discovery), and, specifically his house, the set for much of Downtown Abbey. (I’ve never seen an episode of the TV show. )” > > Wealthy Americans have saved many a British Castle/house/palace (etc) over the past 150 years. It’s all very well being Aristocratic but if all you have is a big house you are the ultimate Asset rich;cash poor. > > It’s no exaggeration to say many large houses would have fallen down if not for Rothschilds, De Vere’s and so on Tbh it’s overwhelmingly English Heritage or the National Trust that save these houses. I have a cousin (a few times removed) who lives in the ‘family seat’, built by one of our ancestors. As stately homes go it is attractive, but relatively compact, though it’s set in a very nice and quite large park designed by Capability Brown. English Heritage put up the money that allowed my cousins to maintain it, but the latest cousin was very canny and he set up the parkland as a tourist attraction and for events like music festivals and is pretty much self-sufficient the last that I heard. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/26 "2016-01-05T19:14:00Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > While we’re nitpicking, although Highclere Castle is near Newbury (which is in Berkshire), the house itself, along with Highclere village, is definitely in _Hampshire_ (my home county). > > ITV got it wrong on the credits of every single episode, for six series. :rolleyes: OK we’ll give you Downton Abbey but [the x-wing base on D’Qar](http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-29144135)is ours dammit! ---
**Author:** ![BeeGee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5a626/32.png) [@BeeGee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeeGee)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/27 "2016-01-05T19:37:24Z")
To Marry an English Lord is a non-fiction account of various American heiresses who married English nobility in the late 1800’s through WWI. It’s a buck 99 on Kindle if you’re interested. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/28 "2016-01-05T23:34:56Z")
To take a prominent fictional example where everyone always slightly misremembers the actual name of the house: > [@](#): > > ‘Why is this house called a ‘‘Castle’’?’ > ‘It used to be one until they moved it.’ > ‘What can you mean?’ > ‘Just that. We had a castle a mile away, down by the village. Then we took a fancy to the valley and pulled the castle down, carted the stones up here, and built a new house. I’m glad they did, aren’t you?’ > ‘If it were mine I’d never live anywhere else.’ > ‘But you see, Charles, it isn’t mine. Just at the moment it is, but usually it’s full of ravening beasts. If it could only be like this always - always summer, always alone, the fruit always ripe, and Aloysius in a good temper …’ I’m not sure that Waugh was ever quite clear about what style the house had been built in, but evidently Ryder must have seen a mismatch between that and the name. There is the suggestion that the fiction is based on [Madresfield Court](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madresfield_Court), though surely no reader now imagines it as anything other than [Castle Howard](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Howard), itself a classic example of an English stately home that looks nothing like the name suggests. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/29 "2016-01-06T06:40:47Z")
IIRC - The castles were fortified buildings - originally a tower or such (keep), then surrounded by a wall enclosing the extra buildings, and so on… The War of the Roses was the final straw proving as much as anything that the monarch could not afford to have subjects who could raise armies and hide from his army. Many castles were rendered unusable over that time as the kings reinforced their supremacy. The same happened to many of the castles in Scotland after the Jacobite rebellions - Eileen Donan castle, for example, was blown down to the foundations and only rebuilt in the 1930’s. Of course, as the country became more pacified and gunpowder rendered castles obsolete, they were neglected too. As a result, many were abandoned and left to ruin. (Upkeep costs money). A good example is the Warwick Castle. Within the curtain wall of the old castle is a large chateaux or mansion house. This was the other problem - as the country expanded and some lords became rich from commerce, they found the tiny main buildings and tiny windows, 5 foot thick walls, etc. built in the 1200’s and 1300’s - did not lend themselves to redecorating as large airy mansions with grand ballrooms and sumptuous living quarters. Castles were abandoned in favour of building new stately houses. Hampton court for example - the archbishop did not need a fortified place, it was built as a large stately home with a modicum of security. A few castles survived if the lord refurbished them, and escaped the kings’ removal of fortifications if the lord had already destroyed the military value by cutting large windows in the exterior walls. If you ever visit Clifford’s tower in York, or the main gate of the Tower of London (St. Thomas Tower?) you will see that what was a sumptuous large dining hall in the 1100’s barely qualifies as a middling bedroom in a 1700’s manor. The great hall in the old part of Hampton court may seem large, but in those days people did not get their own room unless they were important, since construction was expensive. All the lesser nobles and men at arms bunked down together in the dining hall at night. The grand chateaux of the Loire fall into various categories. A few are old castles, renovated into grand houses; many have the grand house added to the old fortifications; some are pretentions, imitations of castles with all the trappings of a grand residence. Chambord, for example, was built as a square of walls and round towers at the corners, but is totally useless as a fortification. Usse (often called “Cinderella’s castle”) was built on the foundations of an old fortress, but is purely show. So what’s a castle? Well, whatever someone calls a castle. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2016, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/30 "2016-01-06T10:03:15Z")
Hampton Court (A palace but never a castle) was mostly built by **Cardinal** Wolsey, but much altered and added to by Henry VIII. > [@](#): > > By the time Henry finished his building works at Hampton Court Palace in about 1540, the palace was one of the most modern, sophisticated and magnificent in England. > > There were tennis courts, bowling alleys and pleasure gardens for recreation, a hunting park of more than 1,100 acres, kitchens covering 36,000 square feet, a fine chapel, a vast communal dining room (the Great Hall) and a multiple garderobe (or lavatory) - known as the Great House of Easement - which could sit 28 people at a time. Water flowed to the palace from Coombe Hill in Kingston, three miles away, through lead pipes. > > - See more at: [http://www.hrp.org.uk/hampton-court-palace/history-and-stories/a-building-history/magnificent-henry/#sthash.65xyYNvF.dpuf](http://www.hrp.org.uk/hampton-court-palace/history-and-stories/a-building-history/magnificent-henry/#sthash.65xyYNvF.dpuf) ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/31 "2016-01-07T22:59:57Z")
Corfe Castle is another example which was ‘slighted’ [blown up] after the Civil War and then quarried for stone by the local inhabitants. > **[Corfe Castle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfe_Castle)** > > Corfe Castle is a fortification standing above the village of the same name on the Isle of Purbeck peninsula in the English county of Dorset. Built by William the Conqueror, the castle dates to the 11th century and commands a gap in the Purbeck Hills on the route between Wareham and Swanage. The first phase was one of the earliest castles in England to be built at least partly using stone when the majority were built with earth and timber. Corfe Castle underwent major structural changes in the ... ---
**Author:** ![Bones\_Daley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@Bones\_Daley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bones_Daley)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/32 "2016-01-09T00:37:52Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > … a multiple garderobe (or lavatory) - known as the Great House of Easement - which could sit 28 people at a time. These Tudors sure knew how to party … ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192/33 "2016-01-09T15:04:20Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Hampton Court (A palace but never a castle) was mostly built by **Cardinal** Wolsey, but much altered and added to by Henry VIII. But like a lot of palaces in this transition time (1500’s) and even much later - it was not particularly fortified in terms of withstanding a military assault; but it did have a closed-in central courtyard, surrounded by structure, and a locking gate, and minimal ground level windows and access from the outside perimeter. It was fairly secure from gangs of thieves, the rabble mob, minor disputes with poorly armed neighbours, etc. I assume the crenellations are décor and/or added much later, as they are pretty useless without the accompanying walkway. Whereas by the time of Blenheim palace (1700’s) there was no need or pretense of security, it had large glassed French doors opening onto terraces, a courtyard open on one one side, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-mans-home-his-castle-eg-the-earl-in-the-real-downtown-abbey-pile/742192.md?page=1)