# When is a putt a putt? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [April 20, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742 "2010-04-20T14:43:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![luvrbcs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@luvrbcs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/luvrbcs)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/1 "2010-04-20T14:43:20Z")
I am starting to keep track of my putts. If I use my putter on a ball that is on the fringe, is that considered a putt? I say no because I feel that to be a putt you have to hit it from on the green. But, I have nothing to back this up. Any thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/2 "2010-04-20T14:48:37Z")
A putt is a putt if you putt when you putt. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/3 "2010-04-20T15:02:48Z")
If it’s on the putting surface, it’s a putt. If it’s on the fringe, regardless if you strike he ball with your putter or not, it’s a chip. ---
**Author:** ![luvrbcs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@luvrbcs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/luvrbcs)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/4 "2010-04-21T00:19:51Z")
Thanks, that is what I thought. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/5 "2010-04-21T00:35:02Z")
Technically, it is only a putt if it is on the putting surface. Practically, if you’re doing it to track your improvement (or lack thereof) you’re better off counting all the putts where you’re trying to sink or lag the putt. That would include everything from on the collar and up to five or six feet off the green. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/6 "2010-04-21T00:49:46Z")
On the PGATour a putt is not a putt unless the ball’s originating point is on the green. Even if the ball is on the frog hair and only 10 ft away from the hole. However, for my personal stats, I would count anything as a putt when I use a putter from the frog-hair. ---
**Author:** ![luvrbcs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@luvrbcs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/luvrbcs)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/7 "2010-04-21T12:23:44Z")
I can do that. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/8 "2010-04-21T12:47:16Z")
Frog hair? What is that? Frogs don’t have hair. ---
**Author:** ![sevenwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/9 "2010-04-21T13:43:58Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Frog hair? What is that? Frogs don’t have hair. Maybe not on **your** golf course they don’t, but on the **fancy-pants** golf courses… ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/10 "2010-04-21T13:48:23Z")
To save me a trip to the rules, if a ball is resting on the surface of the green, but its side is touching the fringe, is that a putt or no? (I think it is, but I play with a group that has a wager on putts, and for purposes of the wager if it touches the fringe it is not a putt. And when the basis of a wager, the only important thing is that everyone knows and agrees on the same rules.) I keep my putts, and prefer to simply count those strokes taken while the ball is on the green, rather than from the fringe or beyond. Just personally prefer a clear definition, and when you can mark and clean your ball does it for me. I’m not sure I personally see a reason to distinguish putting from the fringe from a very makeable chip. So if I use my putter off the fringe, the way I’d track that is if I sink the next putt, in which case I’d have an up-and-down (IMO probably the most significant stat in terms of scoring.) Probably doesn’t really matter how you define it, so long as you do it consistently. If you are a foot off the green, with 10’ uphill to the hole, I can imagine counting that as a putt. But then if you manage to get to within 10’ of the green on a par 5 in 2, yet face 30 yards with multiple brakes, you also consider that a putt - but only if you choose to use your putter? Just doesn’t categorize simply the way my mind works. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/11 "2010-04-21T14:19:45Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > To save me a trip to the rules, if a ball is resting on the surface of the green, but its side is touching the fringe, is that a putt or no? > > (I think it is, but I play with a group that has a wager on putts, and for purposes of the wager if it touches the fringe it is not a putt. And when the basis of a wager, the only important thing is that everyone knows and agrees on the same rules.) It is NOT a putt (and you can’t mark it and pick it up either, which is a good rule of thumb to determine whether a putt is technically a putt) ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/12 "2010-04-21T14:34:00Z")
> [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](#): > > It is NOT a putt (and you can’t mark it and pick it up either, which is a good rule of thumb to determine whether a putt is technically a putt) Cool. So if any part of the ball is touching the fringe it is NOT a putt, rather than the other way around. IME this is one of the things that golfers have extremely strong opinions about both ways. Me, I don’t care. Just enjoying a pleasant walk in the park. But good to know about not being able to mark and clean, for the occasional times I’m in tourneys. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/13 "2010-04-21T14:37:56Z")
Ha! Decided to check the USGA rules, and found this under the definitions: _The “putting green” is all ground of the hole being played that is specially prepared for putting or otherwise defined as such by the Committee. A ball is on the putting green when any part of it touches the putting green._ So I guess I was right about people having strong opinions which may or may not be based in fact! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/14 "2010-04-22T14:43:20Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Ha! Decided to check the USGA rules, and found this under the definitions: > > _The “putting green” is all ground of the hole being played that is specially prepared for putting or otherwise defined as such by the Committee. A ball is on the putting green when any part of it touches the putting green._ > > So I guess I was right about people having strong opinions which may or may not be based in fact! 😉 My apologies. I’ve always been told the opposite. I suppose the next question is how you would mark such a ball. Do you place the marker off of the putting surface on the fringe? ---
**Author:** ![doverpro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@doverpro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doverpro)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/15 "2010-04-22T16:38:39Z")
Rule 20 is the rule that covers the marking, lifting and replacing of a ball. Those procedures are in effect anywhere on the course. Rule 16 says that a ball on the green can be lifted without penalty and that Rule 20 must be followed to do so. The ball should be marked from behind the ball, but there is no penalty for marking from any other side of the ball. The only stipulation is that the ball must be replaced after being lifted. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/16 "2010-04-22T20:30:04Z")
I use a somewhat different criterion: it is a putt if using a putter would be the normal choice with no obvious alternative. Hence using a putter from the fringe would be a putt; using it from the fairway three yards off the green would not be a putt as a chip is a perfectly reasonable alternative. I am often on the lookout for when I can use a putter from a bunker. It is probably never possible on the sorts of courses the pros play, but I fairly often come across a bunker with hard sand and no overhanging lip. A putter (remembering not to ground it) can be a pretty good choice, especially if you are as “good” with a sand-iron as I am. ---
**Author:** ![sevenwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@sevenwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sevenwood)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/17 "2010-04-22T21:06:13Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > using [a putter] from the fairway three yards off the green would not be a putt as a chip is a perfectly reasonable alternative. The high handicapper’s mantra: “putt whenever you can; chip only when you cannot putt; pitch only when you cannot chip”. The basic logic being that a good chip is usually as accurate as a bad putt and a good pitch is usually as accurate as a bad chip. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/18 "2010-04-22T21:11:06Z")
> [@amarone](#): > > I use a somewhat different criterion: it is a putt if using a putter would be the normal choice with no obvious alternative. Hence using a putter from the fringe would be a putt; using it from the fairway three yards off the green would not be a putt as a chip is a perfectly reasonable alternative. > > I am often on the lookout for when I can use a putter from a bunker. It is probably never possible on the sorts of courses the pros play, but I fairly often come across a bunker with hard sand and no overhanging lip. A putter (remembering not to ground it) can be a pretty good choice, especially if you are as “good” with a sand-iron as I am. See post 3. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/19 "2010-04-22T21:21:54Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > See post 3. I read all the posts. I know exactly how the PGA Tour does it for their stats. I described how I do it for my stats. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742/20 "2010-04-22T21:23:36Z")
> [@sevenwood](#): > > The high handicapper’s mantra: “putt whenever you can; chip only when you cannot putt; pitch only when you cannot chip”. Yep - I am with you all the way on that one. All too often a pitch is the shot that I hit immediately before a chip. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-putt-a-putt/536742.md?page=2)