# When is a -tard not a -tard? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 14, 2015, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639 "2015-04-14T13:39:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/61 "2015-04-15T21:46:06Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > “Libby, [a self-identified libtard on Craigslist](https://elpaso.craigslist.org/pol/4931325516.html), _sure seems to have a lot of ideas worthy of the term_. But then I realized it was parody.” > > Any br Nope. You are quoting someone’s use of that term and then saying it actually doesn’t apply. Leave off the last sentence, and you are quoting someone else using the term and using it yourself. That is no different from referring to “under bridge dwellers” as a way to get around using the word “troll”. Or, poster A saying “I’m not trolling” and poster B saying “Yes, you are”. Poster B is clearly calling poster A troll, even though he doesn’t use the term. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/62 "2015-04-15T22:34:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Nope. You are quoting someone’s use of that term and then saying it actually doesn’t apply. Leave off the last sentence, and you are quoting someone else using the term and using it yourself. I mostly agree with the characterization, but opine that that the statement, taken as a whole, would not deserve moderation. The poster in question describes usage, _veers off and says that he agrees narrowly with the characterization_ – but then points out that it’s parody. Taken as a whole it doesn’t insult anyone. But a foolish consistency would have the discussion inappropriately curbed. I think we have sufficient guidance. The suffix is ridiculous and makes the speaker appear addled. It will be modded from time to time, if only to save valued members from themselves. We are a community after all and need to look out for one another. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/63 "2015-04-15T22:50:53Z")
What about tardfest? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/64 "2015-04-15T22:54:11Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > What about tardfest? While the staff would like to think that the majority of posters have the capacity to make some judgments on their own, we do realize that this is not always the case. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/65 "2015-04-15T23:01:20Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > What about tardfest? That’s a prefix. Totally different from using it as a suffix. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/66 "2015-04-16T02:14:09Z")
Quiet, you. ---
**Author:** ![FuriousGeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecae2f/32.png) [@FuriousGeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuriousGeorge)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/67 "2015-04-16T03:37:32Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > What about tardfest? It depends. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/68 "2015-04-16T12:27:54Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > We are generally not going to make up individual rules for individual words. I cannot predict the specific behavior of every Mod, but I am pretty sure that the use of -tard outside The BBQ Pit is going to get Mod attention. > > ETA: While looking over the use of -tard, I found this statement > Given the context, I doubt that it would have been Modded. Similarly, no one is going to go back through this thread handing out demerits to those posting the word. > > Despite the popularity of rules lawyering among some posters on the SDMB, the staff would like to think that the majority of posters have the capacity to make some judgments on their own. They do, but it’s somewhat difficult to understand the implications when you immediately indicated that it’s not ok to use libtard but won’t do so with regard to freeptard. What does that mean? Are the two words subject to different rules or the same rules? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/69 "2015-04-16T12:57:13Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > They do, but it’s somewhat difficult to understand the implications when you immediately indicated that it’s not ok to use libtard but won’t do so with regard to freeptard. What does that mean? Are the two words subject to different rules or the same rules? They’re subject to the same rule. We just don’t know what the rule is. [QUOTE=IvoryTowerDenizen] This is the second time you’ve said something to this effect and I think this is an uneccessarily negative characterization. Jonathan Chance did not say it’d be modded capriciously or on a whim. He said he’d take into account context, tone and other factors. That’s the opposite of modding based on a whim, but applying thought and judgement to the usage [/QUOTE] . He said - > [@](#): > > We agree that ‘libtard’ and ‘freeotard’ and other similar add nothing to the board and should be avoided as a means of encouraging debate and discussion. We reserve the right to moderate or not moderate their use as each moderator sees fit. They agree that the terms add nothing to a debate and should be avoided, but each individual mod may see fit to do nothing about it anyway. Just as I said, there is no way to predict how a given mod may feel on a given day, and the same statement in the same forum may be moderated differently, based on which mod acts first on a report. In light of a “ruling” like this, the complaints of the mods about “rules lawyering” are more than slightly ridiculous. As **LHoD** says, this “it depends on which mod and context and how he feels and other undefined and undefinable circumstances” is absolutely guaranteed to maximize contention. ‘We aren’t going to be consistent, so just don’t guess wrong’ is a Down syndrome standard. This will not reduce arguments - just the opposite. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/70 "2015-04-16T13:17:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > They’re subject to the same rule. We just don’t know what the rule is. > . > He said -They agree that the terms add nothing to a debate and should be avoided, but each individual mod may see fit to do nothing about it anyway. Just as I said, there is no way to predict how a given mod may feel on a given day, and the same statement in the same forum may be moderated differently, based on which mod acts first on a report. Perhaps you missed this post, though I don’t think so since you quoted it where you claim modding will happen on a whim: > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > So, in short, amending something with -tard **may provoke a mod reaction depending on circumstances, context and so forth**. That may be a note or a warning, depending again on the specifics of the case. > > The one thing we did agree on is that use of the term is offensive whether used against those on the right or the left. To characterize it as “on a whim” is misleading. It is clear that the intent is not to mod with respect to the moderators mood, but to take into account context etc. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/71 "2015-04-16T13:23:17Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > To characterize it as “on a whim” is misleading. It is clear that the intent is not to mod with respect to the moderators mood, but to take into account context etc. I’m still trying to reconcile the statements about taking things into context, etc. with Jonathon’s earlier indication in this thread that it’s not OK for posters to use the word libtard - full stop - and his declining to make such a indication with regard to the word freeptard. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/72 "2015-04-16T13:42:37Z")
I don’t think I’ve ever said it was out-of-bounds full stop. I’ve said that it is - as all mod rulings are - context dependent. I’ll say again that the usage is detrimental to debate and - IMHO - reflects poorly on the poster who uses it. But if I were to attempt to control everything that didn’t advance debate and might reflect poorly GD might well be a lonely place. It’s a balance between direct debate rules and a sort of informality required of a social message board. As for Shodan’s assertion (and don’t think I haven’t noticed your use of various constructions avoiding the word ‘retarded’, my friend) that it appears to be whim-based, I certainly disagree. As anyone who spends time on message boards should have found by now, context is enormously important in a format in which informal cues (tone, body language and so forth) are unavailable. Context-sensitive moderation is not only preferred by downright required. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/73 "2015-04-16T13:57:36Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > As for Shodan’s assertion (and don’t think I haven’t noticed your use of various constructions avoiding the word ‘retarded’, my friend) that it appears to be whim-based, I certainly disagree. As anyone who spends time on message boards should have found by now, context is enormously important in a format in which informal cues (tone, body language and so forth) are unavailable. Context-sensitive moderation is not only preferred by downright required. I did not say it was whim-based, I said it was based on what different mods saw fit to do, and on context and circumstances that were left undefined. **tomndebb** rules out “libtard” absolutely, without reference to context of any sort. He rules out “Freeptard”, but with no explanation if this is a one-off, what the context or circumstances were that triggered the ruling, if the ruling applied to only that poster, only that thread, or anything else. Both “libtard” and “Freeptard”, the mods agree, add nothing to a debate and should be avoided. Excepts sometimes “Freeptard” need not be avoided. Because… well, because. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/74 "2015-04-16T14:00:55Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Perhaps you missed this post, though I don’t think so since you quoted it where you claim modding will happen on a whim: > > To characterize it as “on a whim” is misleading. It is clear that the intent is not to mod with respect to the moderators mood, but to take into account context etc. Your allegation that I claimed modding will happen “on a whim” is untrue. Please do not use quote marks to falsely attribute quotes to me. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/75 "2015-04-16T14:33:05Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I don’t think I’ve ever said it was out-of-bounds full stop. I’ve said that it is - as all mod rulings are - context dependent. I apologize, that was **tomndebb**. > [@tomndebb](#): > > > [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > > > So does that mean that it’s OK to use libtard in a thread until a mod indicates otherwise? > > Sure. I am indicating otherwise. This seems like a bright line rule to me, which is different than some of the other statements. I don’t think anyone has an issue with the context dependent part - where someone is quoting other language, making an obvious joke in a confrontational and non-aggressive manner (such as the quote a mod used upthread), discussing the usage of a word (such as here), etc. My concern is around creating a perception that mods may choose to mod one word rather than another. It seems to me that it would be better to simply consider these ‘names’ clear and inappropriate insults and not permit them to be used as a way to denegrate a political pov. > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I’ll say again that the usage is detrimental to debate and - IMHO - reflects poorly on the poster who uses it. But if I were to attempt to control everything that didn’t advance debate and might reflect poorly GD might well be a lonely place. It’s a balance between direct debate rules and a sort of informality required of a social message board. I understand your concern, but I don’t agree that freeptard is some kind of Rubicon where libtard wasn’t. I’m concerned that this issue will do nothing but feed the persecution complex that a segment of this board has, which sometimes poisons the well of discussion here, degrades from the quality of conversation, or subjects various mods to unfair criticism. Just a clear statement that freeptard, or whatever chidlish equivalents may arise, would be modded the same as libtard has been in the past seemed to me to be a layup in terms of combating that issue, and I just don’t see benefit of the equivocating here, or the reasoning behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/76 "2015-04-16T15:19:34Z")
> [@Darth\_Panda](#): > > making an obvious joke in a confrontational and non-aggressive manner (such as the quote a mod used upthread) I meant to write non-confrontational. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/77 "2015-04-16T15:23:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Your allegation that I claimed modding will happen “on a whim” is untrue. Please do not use quote marks to falsely attribute quotes to me. > > Regards, > Shodan Generally, the phrase “on a whim” implies an action based on a fancy, such as mood, or taken arbitrarily, impulsively, or irrationally. It seemed to me you were suggesting such an approach with the way you summarized **Jonathan Chance’s** posts. If that is not what you meant, perhaps some clarification would help. > [@Shodan](#): > > “How the mod happens to feel at the moment and there is no way to predict that in advance” does not strike me as very specific. > [@Shodan](#): > > Here are some possible rulings - > It depends on how each moderator feels at the moment, and other circumstances that we aren’t going to tell you about. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/78 "2015-04-16T15:38:42Z")
Since the mods are loath to state a bright line rule, but seem to be strongly discouraging its use, and since some posters seem to be especially uncertain what that means in terms of future usage, how about this guidance (not a rule, mind you, but guidance): \*The use of -tard as an insulting suffix in GD is highly discouraged. Assume that any use of such will be moderated, either with a mod note or a warning. We recognize that in some instances it may not be mod’ed, but the risk is on the poster using the term, and you better have an awfully good reason for using it if you expect NOT to be mod’ed. \* ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/79 "2015-04-16T15:53:57Z")
I happen to like rules lawyering. It is a character flaw I know, but alas. So if “libtard” is verboten, what if there was just a global replace using the phrase ‘liberals who are developmentally delayed’? Is there a meaningful difference? The problem I see with banning the original word is that what you are actually banning is a poorly fleshed out idea. I personally think the name calling is juvenile and don’t engage in that sort of discourse. The rule though just stinks. Not insulting people on this board while allowing a free for all for off board people is easy to follow. With this type of rule there’s just another asterisk. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639/80 "2015-04-16T16:19:48Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Generally, the phrase “on a whim” implies an action based on a fancy, such as mood, or taken arbitrarily, impulsively, or irrationally. It seemed to me you were suggesting such an approach with the way you summarized **Jonathan Chance’s** posts. If that is not what you meant, perhaps some clarification would help. Previous rulings have made it clear that text within quote boxes or quotation marks was sacrosanct. Apparently that’s not the case. _:shrugs:_ Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-tard-not-a-tard/717639.md?page=5)