# When is a war criminal not a war criminal? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059 "2005-07-11T20:54:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/21 "2005-07-12T14:41:26Z")
Poland should sneak in a special ops team and spirit Morel away. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/22 "2005-07-12T14:57:31Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Poland should sneak in a special ops team and spirit Morel away. (Insert joke here. Preferably, it should regard the stereotype that the polish do everything wrong, or backwards.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/23 "2005-07-12T15:02:11Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I have no sympathy for Morel if these charges are true. None at all if they’re true? Not even a little? Pretend you’re Solomon Morel. You’ve just survived a concentration camp, where, until you were liberated, you were being beaten, starved and worked to death. Your friends and family haven’t…they’ve been killed. Now you’ve been placed in charge of a prison guarding the people who killed your family and friends and almost killed you. What would you do? Can you really say that there’s no way you wouldn’t have done what he did? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/24 "2005-07-12T15:27:58Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Now you’ve been placed in charge of a prison guarding the people who killed your family and friends and almost killed you. Then again, there were probably lots and lots of innocents rounded up, imprisoned and murdered. I doubt that the Russian secret police (who did the rounding up) were rounding up only German Nazis - I’d be surprised if they didn’t also include Poles who resisted Russian control. Or who were suspected of being likely to resist. Morel should be tried. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/25 "2005-07-12T15:39:01Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > So, there’s no facility for extradition and the Israeli legal-eagles have decided that such accusations are without grounds and/or are past the statute of limitations for charges to proceed. Yeah… no extradition treaty and what he’s charged with is past the statute of lmitations under Israeli law. Not, as you put it, that they just up and decided ‘Oh, um, we won’t try him.’ Try not being totally intellectually dishonest, eh? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/26 "2005-07-12T15:41:52Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > None at all if they’re true? Not even a little? Pretend you’re Solomon Morel. You’ve just survived a concentration camp, where, until you were liberated, you were being beaten, starved and worked to death. Your friends and family haven’t…they’ve been killed. Now you’ve been placed in charge of a prison guarding the people who killed your family and friends and almost killed you. What would you do? Can you really say that there’s no way you wouldn’t have done what he did? I really can. I believe myself to be fully capable of ripping out the beating heart of anybody who I know has done direct harm to my loved one(s). But I cannot justify punishing by proxy. And yes, my grand parents on both sides were survivors of Nazi occupation, and yes many relatives on both sides parished in camps and mass grave executions. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/27 "2005-07-12T15:48:18Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Morel should be tried. Tried for what, exactly? This is not a trivial question. What he is accused of has past the statute of limitations under Israeli law. Would you counsel that nations which do not have extradition treaties with other nations, and do not view occurances as punishable crimes anymore should still send off their citizens? Does is not bother you that this is aparantly politicaly/racially motivated? That one of the most anti-semitic nations on earth has seen fit to try and legally track down the Jews involved in its prison system while totally ignoring the gentiles? How about the fact that the policies the camps operated under were not Morel’s perogative, and the guards would have acted as they did even if Morel had not been there? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/28 "2005-07-12T15:52:26Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > None at all if they’re true? Not even a little? Pretend you’re Solomon Morel. You’ve just survived a concentration camp, where, until you were liberated, you were being beaten, starved and worked to death. Your friends and family haven’t…they’ve been killed. Now you’ve been placed in charge of a prison guarding the people who killed your family and friends and almost killed you. What would you do? Can you really say that there’s no way you wouldn’t have done what he did? According to one of the links above, one of the victims of Morel was a thirteen year old girl. You telling me a thirteen year old Polish girl was personally responsible for what happened to Morel’s family? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/29 "2005-07-12T15:57:10Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > How about the fact that the policies the camps operated under were not Morel’s perogative, and the guards would have acted as they did even if Morel had not been there? Evidently Stalin was the architect of these camps. The policies, I suppose, were his given that he ruled with an iron fist. But the “_I vas just folloving ordersss_” was not an effective defense at Neuremberg and should not be a defense for Morel. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/30 "2005-07-12T16:02:51Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > So, there’s no facility for extradition and the Israeli legal-eagles have decided that such accusations are without grounds and/or are past the statute of limitations for charges to proceed. Just to focus on this again: the claims of the second indictment, even if true, do not constitute genocide or crimes against humanity under Israeli law. Are you, **Kambuckta** , honestly counseling that people be deported from the nations in which they’re citizens to face charges for actions which are no longer crimes according to their home nation? Would you be willing to give up your life if another country made the same claim upon it? **Quicksilver** , you miss my point. I know “…just following orders.” is no defense. My point was that the conduct of the guards was not set by Morel. They weren’t his orders in any case. I don’t doubt that he was an evil fuck and guilty as sin, but why has Poland not prosecuted, say, the commander of Lamsdorf? Could it, perhaps, be that he was a Polish Catholic? Is it coincidence that one of the most anti-semitic nations on earth is _only_ going after the Jews who served in its prison system? In any case, even if every charge leveled against Morel is gospel, it doesn’t fit the definition of a crime for which there’s still a statute of limitations under Israeli law. It’s not like they changed their law just for Morel, either. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/31 "2005-07-12T16:15:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > In any case, even if every charge leveled against Morel is gospel, it doesn’t fit the definition of a crime for which there’s still a statute of limitations under Israeli law. It’s not like they changed their law just for Morel, either. I’m in agreement with you here. I don’t think he should be extradited. Poland’s record with respect to Jews is indeed suspect. Doesn’t justify Morel’s alleged actions, but I know you’re not arguing that it does. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/32 "2005-07-12T16:41:40Z")
> [@askeptic](#): > > Did you read the fucking article? > > On what basis do you suggest they put one of their citizens on a plane back to the land of the Holocaust? They have no extradition treaty. > > Got news for you Jack. **No country will extradite one of its citizens to a country with which it does not have such a treaty**. Bollocks. Firstly, Israel itself is happy to ignore extradition procedures when it suits (cf. Mordechai Vanunu). Secondly, although most cases are dealt with pursuant to a formal extradition treaty there’s nothing preventing two nations mutually agreeing to hand over individuals - especially if the accused is not a citizen of the country in which they are living. It makes it trickier in law, but it’s certainly possible. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/33 "2005-07-12T16:46:50Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > According to one of the links above, one of the victims of Morel was a thirteen year old girl. You telling me a thirteen year old Polish girl was personally responsible for what happened to Morel’s family? I didn’t say what the man did was right (if he did what he’s accused of doing). But, if I were in his place, I might have done the same thing. And I don’t know about 13 year old Polish girls, but I do know that if every member of the Wehrmacht, the SS and the Nazi party in Germany and their collaborators in the occupied countries were lined up and shot after the war, I think I would be ok with that. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/34 "2005-07-12T17:13:38Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Tried for what, exactly? Crimes against humanity. Possibly genocide. > [@](#): > > What he is accused of has past the statute of limitations under Israeli law. Would you counsel that nations which do not have extradition treaties with other nations, and do not view occurances as punishable crimes anymore should still send off their citizens? Seems to me that Israel has had zero problem violating extradition treaties when it suits their purpose. They should think about doing so when it doesn’t, so as not to look like the complete hypocrites they are when it comes to genocide and crimes against humanity. > [@](#): > > Does is not bother you that this is aparantly politicaly/racially motivated? That one of the most anti-semitic nations on earth has seen fit to try and legally track down the Jews involved in its prison system while totally ignoring the gentiles? You keep making this assertion. You have yet to provide a cite. And sometimes good results come from bad intentions. If he was in charge of a camp that deliberately tortured and murdered 1,500 inmates then he ought to be tried. > [@](#): > > How about the fact that the policies the camps operated under were not Morel’s perogative, and the guards would have acted as they did even if Morel had not been there? Ah, yes. The famous Nuremberg defense. “I vas just followeenk orders.” I believe that’s been determined to not cut the mustard. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/35 "2005-07-12T17:24:36Z")
What exactly was Poland charging him with? The article linked to in the OP (which does seem a bit lacking in detail) says he’s believed to be responsible for the deaths of 1500 people. I find it rather shocking that Israel would have a statute of limitations for mass murder, if that is indeed the charge. Correct me if I’m wrong, but in the US there’s not even a statute of limitations for _one_ murder, is there? And I would have thought Israel would take mass murder even more seriously, given the history of the Jewish people. No? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/36 "2005-07-12T18:02:03Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > Crimes against humanity. Possibly genocide. Again. _Not under Israeli law_. Again. The crimes he is alleged to have commited have _passed the statute of limitations under Israeli law_. Again. The crimes he is alleged to have commited _do not fit the Israeli legal definition of war crimes, crimes against humanity, or genocide._ So whatever you want to charge him with is _not a crime any longer_ in his nation of citizenship. > [@Neurotik](#): > > You keep making this assertion. You have yet to provide a cite. So, you’re asking me to prove a negative, eh? Do some research. Can you find many examples of Polish camp commanders being extradited and then tried let alone sentenced for war crimes? There were many camps, surely you should be able to find rouhly one hundred cites of various gentile trials? I did make one mistake, as Czeslaw Geborski, the commander of Lamsdorf originaly had his charges fall through in, I believe, 1998 but was charged again in 2001 which I was unaware of. That was almost five years ago, and I can’t find a cite for any verdict being handed down. > [@Neurotik](#): > > And sometimes good results come from bad intentions. If he was in charge of a camp that deliberately tortured and murdered 1,500 inmates then he ought to be tried. If he was charged with murder, he wouldn’t be past the statute of limitations. He hasn’t been charged with murder. > [@Neurotik](#): > > Ah, yes. The famous Nuremberg defense. “I vas just followeenk orders.” I believe that’s been determined to not cut the mustard. Yeah… I never thought about that. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I know “…just following orders.” is no defense. My point was that the conduct of the guards was not set by Morel. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/37 "2005-07-12T18:06:19Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I didn’t say what the man did was right (if he did what he’s accused of doing). But, if I were in his place, I might have done the same thing. > > And I don’t know about 13 year old Polish girls, but I do know that if every member of the Wehrmacht, the SS and the Nazi party in Germany and their collaborators in the occupied countries were lined up and shot after the war, I think I would be ok with that. Except that’s not who were in these camps, dammit! That doesn’t bother you that this man completely turned around and did the exact same thing that had been done to him, only to innocent bystanders? **tim314** , you’re right-in the US, there are not statute of limitations on murder. Look at that old Klansmen in his eighties who was just sentenced to prison for a murder that took place in the sixties. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/38 "2005-07-12T18:20:44Z")
> [@e-logic](#): > > Bollocks. > > Firstly, Israel itself is happy to ignore extradition procedures when it suits (cf. Mordechai Vanunu). You mean this [Mordechai Vanunu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu) ? The Israeli citizen, Mordechai Vanunu? Being held in Israel. Extradite him to where? Bollocks indeed. > [@e-logic](#): > > Secondly, although most cases are dealt with pursuant to a formal extradition treaty there’s nothing preventing two nations mutually agreeing to hand over individuals - especially if the accused is not a citizen of the country in which they are living. Attention International Law Advocates! We can bend the rules a little! \*\*e-logic \*\* says it’s okay… :rolleyes: > [@e-logic](#): > > It makes it trickier in law, but it’s certainly possible. Lots of things are possible. Doesn’t make them advisable. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/39 "2005-07-12T18:28:01Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > So, you’re asking me to prove a negative, eh? I’m asking you to back up a single thing you’ve asserted. All you’ve done is blindly apologize for a mass murderer. > [@](#): > > I did make one mistake, as Czeslaw Geborski, the commander of Lamsdorf originaly had his charges fall through in, I believe, 1998 but was charged again in 2001 which I was unaware of. That was almost five years ago, and I can’t find a cite for any verdict being handed down. Was he Jewish, too? What was the “political” reason he was charged? Or maybe you’re full of shit in your smears against the Poles. > [@](#): > > If he was charged with murder, he wouldn’t be past the statute of limitations. He hasn’t been charged with murder. No, he was charged with [genocide.](http://www.revisionisthistory.org/hypocrisy.html) Of course, the Israelis are claiming that it “doesn’t live up to their definition of genocide.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/40 "2005-07-12T18:47:32Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Except that’s not who were in these camps, dammit! That doesn’t bother you that this man completely turned around and did the exact same thing that had been done to him, only to innocent bystanders? Of course it bothers me. But I understand why he did it, and if I were him, I probably would have done it. And those were some of the people in those camps. From the 60 minutes piece (which I point out, is linked from Holocaust denier David Irving’s website), bolding mine: > [@](#): > > Not just **German soldiers** but Polish civilians, women, teen-agers, **people from families of German origin** or **under suspicion of Nazi sympathies** And just because some of those people were Polish civilians, women or teenagers doesn’t mean anything. Women and teenagers could be Nazis too, and there were Poles who collaborated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059.md?page=3)