# When is a war criminal not a war criminal? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 11, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059 "2005-07-11T20:54:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/41 "2005-07-12T18:48:25Z")
I’d have to look at this from the other way around. If Morel were a Pole, accused of the same crimes, but against Jews, by the Israelis. He is not eligible for extradition because of the lack of treaty, and his “crimes” were not crimes under Polish law, how would Israel proceed? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/42 "2005-07-12T18:57:22Z")
**ShibbOleth** : We already have an answer to your question. I’d post the answer as a question: What has Israel done about those who participated in and organized the Polish pogroms but were never charged? > [@Neurotik](#): > > All you’ve done is blindly apologize for a mass murderer. You, sir, are a liar. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I don’t doubt that he was an evil fuck and guilty as sin… > [@Neurotik](#): > > Was he Jewish, too? What was the “political” reason he was charged? Or maybe you’re full of shit in your smears against the Poles. I already said he was a Polish Catholic, try reading, eh? Again, you’re asking me to prove a negative, which is a fallacy, and claiming that the well documented history of Polish anti-semitism is a ‘smear’ made by me. :rolleyes: [Let me guess, you’re totally ignorant of facts such as these?](http://www.ce-review.org/01/14/orlet14.html) If so, you have little place attempting to call me on jack shit. Militant ignorance is somewhat distasteful. My request remains, can you give me _more than one single_ trial? There were many, many camps. Surely you can find more than one trial? Have you even followed the case? Are you aware of the Polish protests over the fact that the Lamsdorf case was even going to trial? > [@Neurotik](#): > > No, he was charged with [genocide.](http://www.revisionisthistory.org/hypocrisy.html) Of course, the Israelis are claiming that it “doesn’t live up to their definition of genocide.” :smack: Yes. The Israelis do not find that the evidence presented is enough to charge him with genocide under _their laws._ ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/43 "2005-07-12T19:11:21Z")
Gah, just so those following along at home don’t see my refusal to cater to ignorance as a paucity of facts: [ > [@](#): > > . Attempts by the Polish authoritiesto extradite certain Polish Jews living abroad to stand trial for crimes dating from the Stalinist era seemed tinged with anti-Semitism. The cases of Helena Brus, a former military prosecutor now living in Oxford (wife of the celebrated economist Prof. Wlodzimierz Brus), and Solomon Morel, former commander of a Polish detention camp in Swietochlowice, who left Katowice for Tel Aviv in 1993, appeared in part to be an endeavor to draw public attention to the role of Jews in the much-hated communist security apparatus in the years immediately after the war. It should be noted that no such extradition requests have been directed at former Soviet republics where some non-Jewish retired security officials now live. ]([http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw99-2000/poland.htm](http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw99-2000/poland.htm)) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/44 "2005-07-12T19:30:57Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > I’d have to look at this from the other way around. If Morel were a Pole, accused of the same crimes, but against Jews, by the Israelis. He is not eligible for extradition because of the lack of treaty, and his “crimes” were not crimes under Polish law, how would Israel proceed? They’d get better lawyers. Jewish ones. ;j Not quite the same is it? One is a recognize minority singled out for genocide and discriminated against for much of human history. The other… not so much. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/45 "2005-07-12T20:04:20Z")
[What horrible smear tactics I use. Horrible. Just horrible.](http://www.internationalviewpoint.org/article.php3?id_article=433) ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/46 "2005-07-12T20:34:01Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > You mean this [Mordechai Vanunu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu) ? The Israeli citizen, Mordechai Vanunu? Being held in Israel. Extradite him to where? > > Bollocks indeed. Dopey bitch - he was kidnapped from Italy by Israeli agents because there wasn’t a formal extradition agreement between Israel and european nations. In fact, he was specifically lured to Italy because the Israeli government had promised the UK they wouldn’t do anything to him on UK soil. > [@](#): > > The Israeli government had promised Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher that they would not conduct operations on British soil; therefore it was important to get Vanunu out of the country under his own volition. Once in Rome, Mossad agents drugged and abducted him, and returned him to Israel on a freighter. So it seems the Israelis don’t always pay attention to the lack of formal extradition treaties after all… if it works to get people to Israel it can be used to send war criminals the other way. Do you read the links you post, or just pull them out of your arse? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Attention International Law Advocates! We can bend the rules a little! e-logic says it’s okay… Seems the Canadian Govt agrees with me - guess they’d know more about it than you, eh chuckles? In 1998 the Canadian Govt proposed legislation that would… “ **… be flexible enough to provide for extradition without treaty on the basis of designation or a case specific agreement** ”. [http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/news/nr/1998/extrt.html](http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/news/nr/1998/extrt.html) ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/47 "2005-07-12T21:23:11Z")
> [@e-logic](#): > > Dopey bitch - he was kidnapped from Italy by Israeli agents because there wasn’t a formal extradition agreement between Israel and european nations. > > In fact, he was specifically lured to Italy because the Israeli government had promised the UK they wouldn’t do anything to him on UK soil. And that makes him not Israeli how? 😕 > [@e-logic](#): > > So it seems the Israelis don’t always pay attention to the lack of formal extradition treaties after all… if it works to get people to Israel it can be used to send war criminals the other way. And if the Polish secret service abducted Morell then you’d have a point. > [@e-logic](#): > > Seems the Canadian Govt agrees with me - guess they’d know more about it than you, eh chuckles? > > In 1998 the Canadian Govt proposed legislation that would… > > “ **… be flexible enough to provide for extradition without treaty on the basis of designation or a case specific agreement** ”. > > [We couldn't find that Web page (Error 404) - Department of Justice / Nous ne pouvons trouver cette page Web (Erreur 404) - Ministère de la Justice](http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/news/nr/1998/extrt.html) The Canadian gov’t could propose legislation that would require you to shower more often. I might agree with them. Wouldn’t make it a worthwhile way to spend tax dollars but hey, who am I to argue. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/48 "2005-07-12T21:28:48Z")
Wait… I take the extradition point back. I see what you meant now… :smack: Still, they just called him home. And wouldn’t take no for an answer. It’s like that in jewish families. ;j ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/49 "2005-07-12T22:31:14Z")
Mordechai! We haven’t seen you in ages. Why don’t you come home and see your poor mother, she’s worried sick about you. Maybe have a nosh while you’re here? You’re thin as a post, have you been eating right? You want to maybe spend some time in maximum security? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/50 "2005-07-12T23:30:46Z")
Poland’s demand for Morel extradiction from Israel is part of two-pronged effort of Polish authorities [to prosecute all “perpetrators of genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes”.](http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_news_int_coo_lyon_kulesza.html) They are looking into Nazi crimes, which are well known, but also into Communist crimes, which are much less known, especially because Communists maintained grip on Polan for 30+ years. Morel case is part of prosecution of Communist crimes. **FinnAgain** , take a good look at the cite above. [It most certainly isn’t anti-semitic at all.](http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_hist_sketch.html) > [@](#): > > Currently, a few hundred cases of the communist crimes, perpetrated by the functionaries of the totalitarian communist state, are being investigated. In the years 2000 – 2003, almost 60 charge sheets were filed to courts against the perpetrators of the communist crimes. Prison sentences (of 1 to 8 years) are being pronounced in those cases. Execution of imprisonment penalty of up to 2 years is in particular cases conditionally suspended by courts. > > At present, 12 perpetrators of the communist crimes are sought by the international “wanted” notices through the agency of Interpol. In recent years, Poland moved for extradition in several cases of the communist crimes perpetrators staying in other European countries, but none of the requests has been accepted so far. [Press Communigue Regarding Court Motion for the Provisional Arrest of Salomon Morel](http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_news_high_morel.html) > [@](#): > > With regard to untrue information about the Salomon Morel’s case which were revealed in media I hereby inform: > Neither Salomon Morel nor a member of his family was in Auschwitz Concentration Camp or any other camp. Already in 1991 Salomon Morel was interrogated by the District Commission for Research of Crimes against the Polish Nation; in 1992 Morel left Poland and went to Israel where he joined his daughter. Not earlier then in May 1995 the District Commission had passed the case files to the then Wojevodship Prosecutor’s Office in Katowice, which issued a decision to accuse Salomon Morel in September 1996. Thus Salomon Morel left Poland when media publicized his case, 4 years before issuing the decision to accuse him. At present the number of prisoners deceased in Œwiêtoch³owice Zgoda amounts to 1695. There are no information about the fact that Salomon Morel posses Israel citizenship, but it is certain that he has valid Polish passport. > > Prosecutor Ewa Koj > > Head of Divisional Commission > for Prosecution of Crimes against the Polish Nation ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/51 "2005-07-13T00:12:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Does is not bother you that this is aparantly politicaly/racially motivated? That one of the most anti-semitic nations on earth has seen fit to try and legally track down the Jews involved in its prison system while totally ignoring the gentiles? There may well be political and unsavory ethnic motivations involved. What really concerns me though, is whether there is sufficient effort to try the man for these alleged crimes. I am never impressed with the defense “Others are getting away with it!” > [@](#): > > How about the fact that the policies the camps operated under were not Morel’s perogative, and the guards would have acted as they did even if Morel had not been there? It would bother me to make this statement, as much the same thing was said about brutal concentration camp guards and officials operating under the Nazi regime. “I vas chust following orders.” :rolleyes: Other nations (including most likely Poland) have stonewalled requests to try or produce citizens previously involved in WWII-era crimes based on a variety of factors including an array of legalisms. If Israel has a good reason for not making a greater effort to institute a trial in this case, I have not yet heard it. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/52 "2005-07-13T03:49:35Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Gah, just so those following along at home don’t see my refusal to cater to ignorance as a paucity of facts: > > [ Wow. How about that? A motherfucking cite. Just like I simply asked for in the first place. I guess it is possible to “prove a negative.” Fucking dumbass. It’s not catering to ignorance when you make a fucking claim and then someone asks you to back it up. Of course, that claim doesn’t prove your assertion that Poland is only targetting Jews for crimes during the Communist occupation.[url=“[http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng\_inv\_januszb.html](http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_inv_januszb.html)”]Janus B.]([http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw99-2000/poland.htm](http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw99-2000/poland.htm)) is being prosecuted in Lebork for torturing prisoners. [Bohdan Koziy](http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_inv_koziy.html) is currently under extradition proceedings for the crime of genocide against Jews, they even went so far as to get his US citizenship revoked before he fled to Costa Rica. Huh, extraditing someone for killing Jews. Who knew those crazy, anti-Semitic Poles would do something like that. > [@](#): > > I already said he was a Polish Catholic, try reading, eh? Rhetorical question, you dumb fuck. > [@](#): > > Let me guess, you’re totally ignorant of facts such as these? What facts? That 60 years ago pogroms took place and people are uncomfortable acknowledging that? That there is still anti-Semitism among the rural poor and least educated segments of Poland? Wow. Who would have known something like that. That’s totally unique to Poland. Or any other other western country that tolerated massive civil and human rights abuses against minorities half a century ago (see: United States). What a fucking shocker. We also have the Polish president saying that Poland should use the anniversary of the massacre to ask for forgiveness from their Jewish population. Overt anti-semitism right there, if you ask me. Frankly, it looks pretty plain to me that the state of Israel is only concerned with bringing perpetrators of genocide to justice when it concerns the Holocaust, and only then, when the perpetrators were acting against Jews. I’d bet a lot of money that if Mr. Morel were a Nazi camp commander, they’d be screaming anti-Semitism if some country refused to extradite him. Or they’d just violate the law and kidnap him. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/53 "2005-07-13T04:11:15Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > …it seems horribly stupid for Israel to refuse to extradite a war criminal … Nitpick perhaps, but the alleged crimes were committed _after_ the war. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/54 "2005-07-13T04:33:42Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > And just because some of those people were Polish civilians, women or teenagers doesn’t mean anything. Women and teenagers could be Nazis too, and there were Poles who collaborated. True, but there were also a hell of a lot of Poles who suffered under the Nazis and were in the camps along side the Jews. It wasn’t just the Jews who suffered during the Holocaust. I’m not trying to diminish what they went through, but dammit, saying, “Well, they MIGHT have been Nazis, so I don’t fault the guy.” is absolute bullshit. If you think the SOVIETS running the camp were any better than the Nazis, you’re fucking crazy. I’ve got family in Poland still living with the effects of Communism. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/55 "2005-07-13T05:07:14Z")
By the way, just want to start out this post by pointing out the fact that you’re a filthy contemptible liar who hasn’t even retracted his lie. Knowing that you’re an honorless rodent, let’s continue, shall we? > [@Neurotik](#): > > Wow. How about that? A motherfucking cite. Just like I simply asked for in the first place. Sorry, you’re ignorant and hadn’t done the research. Sorry I don’t cater to your lazy ass. Really, I’m sorry. > [@Neurotik](#): > > It’s not catering to ignorance when you make a fucking claim and then someone asks you to back it up. Actually, besides the fact that you’re a load your mother should’ve swallowed,you hadn’t even done the research and saw fit to challenge the facts of the matter because you can’t be bothered to fucking google it, yeah, treating your ignorance with respect is indeed catering to ignorance. Face it, you’re a loud mouthed asshole who hadn’t done any reading, and still decided to hold forth. Pardon me for not catering to your ignorance while you’re too damn lazy to inform yourself _before_ you get into a debate. > [@Neurotik](#): > > Of course, that claim doesn’t prove your assertion that Poland is only targetting Jews for crimes during the Communist occupation.[Janus B.](http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_inv_januszb.html) is being prosecuted in Lebork for torturing prisoners. Since you’ve been too lazy to get off your ass and type a handful of letters into google, I’ll make this simple for you. Lebork? It’s in Poland. Exxxxxtradition? No. Moreover, is torturing prisoners an allegation of genocide? Why, no? You don’t say? Ah. In addition, how about the fact that at least as of a year or two ago, none of those in former soviet turf have been extradited? Ya know, the actual architects of the camps? Don’t worry, just insult me some more and **then** do some research to learn if you’ve even got a position that can be defended. That’s sure honorable. > [@Neurotik](#): > > [Bohdan Koziy](http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_inv_koziy.html) is currently under extradition proceedings for the crime of genocide against Jews, they even went so far as to get his US citizenship revoked before he fled to Costa Rica. Huh, extraditing someone for killing Jews. Who knew those crazy, anti-Semitic Poles would do something like that. Good gods you’re dense. No, the Poles aren’t anti-semitic. Nope. :rolleyes: Some idiot on a message board says they’re not so ignore the evidence! Ignore it! Walesa’s own priest didn’t come out with some anti-semitic trash. Nope. Some idiot on a message board, who can’t be bothered to do research, ignores the evidence he hasn’t researched. So that’s, like, almost as good as it never happening. Right? Again, you lazy motherfucker, you’re too broke to even pay attention. Koziy was **working for the Germans**. As such, he \*\*was not a Polish camp commander. \*\* Also, you lazy fuck, who was the driving force behind the charges, as given in your own cite? You indolent too-fucking-tired-to-read-his-own-cite asshole muncher? > [@](#): > > A request of Efraim Zuroff, Head of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Israel, together with enclosed copies of documentation from the proceedings by the United States to revoke Bohdan Koziy’s US citizenship conducted by the US Federal Court – Southern District of Florida, was the basis to initiate the investigation in this case. So it only took the Wiesenthal center and a US court acting independently to initiate the investigation. Good job there Poland! > [@Neurotik](#): > > Rhetorical question Sorry, I knew you were lazy and ignorant, I didn’t realize you were as dense as granite too. The Geborski trial fell through because the Polish authorities couldn’t be bothered to look into enough evidence. Almost 50 years later, when they were looking for European acceptance, the Poles reopened the investigation. Go figure. I’m willing to bet you didn’t know that, as you’re too much of an asshole to do any research before you open your mouth. > [@Neurotik](#): > > What facts? That 60 years ago pogroms took place and people are uncomfortable acknowledging that? Wow… willful ignorance. Par for the course. I’m surprised you got off your ass long enough to click on a link. Yeah, people are ‘uncomfortable’ with that fact. yeah… > [@](#): > > For instance, the Warsaw Voice quoted an old woman leaving one of Father Jankowski’s masses: “‘What the priest says is the real truth; this church is our Poland. We are ruled by Jews, so we have to fight them. And here is our weapon,’ she said, pointing to her rosary.” > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, many Poles, including those well-educated, continue to insist that Jews caused the Second World War, believing most Jews were Communist sympathizers who (paradoxically) grew rich by taking advantage of poor, hard-working peasants. > [@](#): > > There is no question that the quality of education in Poland was poor, particularly in the rural eastern lands. Often the most educated and respected person in a rural area was the village priest. According to Gross, instead of preaching tolerance toward the local Jewish population, priests “evoked in their sermons an image of Jews as God-killers, particularly at Easter, making the season a perennial occasion for anti-Semitic violence.” Yeah. Those innocent, Jew loving, put upon Poles who Finn is unjustly casting aspersions upon! Tisk. Tisk. > [@Neurotik](#): > > That there is still anti-Semitism among the rural poor and least educated segments of Poland? I’m not sure if you’re painfully ignorant and loudmouthed, or just a liar. Well, I mean, we already know you’re a liar, but I’m not sure if that’s all you are. You understand, I’m sure. But, let’s look at your lie that it’s only the poor and uneducated, shall we? Remember the story about Walesa’s priest? [ > [@](#): > > Father Henry Jankowski’s anti-Semitic statements were made during a sermon on June 11, with President Walesa in the congregation. The priest declared that members of the Polish Government have secret allegiances to Israel or Russia, and that the Jewish Star of David was part of the Nazi swastika and the communist hammer and sickle. Later, he asserted, “Like all other people, Jews happen to do unbecoming things in public life just as they happen to do very noble things indeed. I am talking chiefly about banking and finance circles.” ]([http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt\_13/2505\_13.asp](http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/2505_13.asp)) > [@Neurotik](#): > > We also have the Polish president saying that Poland should use the anniversary of the massacre to ask for forgiveness from their Jewish population. Overt anti-semitism right there, if you ask me. No, that’s called politics. What’s the very next sentence? > [@](#): > > …a cynic might point out that this statement may have more to do with Poland’s ongoing bid to join the European Economic Union than actual contrition, And, of course President Aleksander Kwaśniewski didn’t drag his feet as long as possible when asked to return stolen property to the Jews. Nopers… but you’re ignorant of that fact, having never done any research before you opened your yap. Good job! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/56 "2005-07-13T05:39:22Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Poland’s demand for Morel extradiction from Israel is part of two-pronged effort of Polish authorities Notice who they’re actually prosecuting. “Minor functionaries”, mostly people guilty of torture but not genocide, and the sentences have been from one to eight years. And, 12 people are on Interpol’s wanted list. First, why only twelve? There were many camps working under Stalin’s orders. And, why aren’t they making a fuss over those twelve? Were any of those twelve even camp commanders? Are they not Polish citizens? The news isn’t filled with stories of those twelve, but they’re throwing a fit over Morel. Odd, that. Oh, and, if Morel is a Jew and asks for it, he’s an Israeli citizen. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > There may well be political and unsavory ethnic motivations involved. What really concerns me though, is whether there is sufficient effort to try the man for these alleged crimes. I am never impressed with the defense “Others are getting away with it!” It’s not a defesnse, it’s simply a disturbing fact of the matter. Like I said, Morel is most likely an evil guilty fuck. His crimes are not diminished because others did similar things. But by the same token, why doesn’t Poland simply charge him with murder, rather than genocide/war crimes? I question just how political the issue is. If the claims aren’t genocide under Israeli law, and if he killed people, then charge him with murder, which is a crime under Israeli law. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > It would bother me to make this statement, as much the same thing was said about brutal concentration camp guards and officials operating under the Nazi regime. You misunderstand me. Part of the problem with Poland’s claims is that they argue that, mostly, Morel commited sins of omission. Claiming that he “didn’t prevent” the methods used, and in some cases used them himself. But even in those cases, to my knowledge, they haven’t claimed that he killed people. The charges ammount to torture and severe mistreatment. All of which, yes, he could and should be jailed for, were it not past the statute of limitations. If he issued orders, why not present that fact? It isn’t a question of ‘just following orders’. It’s a question of what facts they’re bringing to the light of day and what they’re trying to charge him with. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > If Israel has a good reason for not making a greater effort to institute a trial in this case, I have not yet heard it. The oringinal charge was past the statute of limitations, the current one does not fit their definition of a war crime. If Poland cares more about justice than a political fight, they’ll charge him with murder. If he didn’t murder anybody, then he’s not able to be tried under war crimes statutes in Israel because they don’t consider the charges to be war crimes. So, just to sum up: He was originaly charged with crimes that were past the statute of limitations. Then, he was charged with things that aren’t war crimes under Israeli law. If the Polish government has different charges that allow them to charge Morel with murder, then they should present them. Otherwise, changing the original charges to genocide without providing new evidence won’t cut it. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/57 "2005-07-13T07:07:31Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > The news isn’t filled with stories of those twelve, but they’re throwing a fit over Morel. Odd, that. I think the official documents I gave you maintain temperate language and to the point. Nowhere Morel nationality is even mentioned. Nobody is throwing fits. He is wanted as Communist criminal. He seems to be a complete villain. But if you want to see really serious charges against someone else, [here is Katyn massacre](http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_news_high_katyn_press.html). > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Oh, and, if Morel is a Jew and asks for it, he’s an Israeli citizen. I know that Israel gives sanctuary to every Jew that steps on her soil. Obviously, Morel was perfectly happy in Poland under Communism. Only after Polish Communists lost power, he moved to Israel in fear of being persecuted for old brutalities he comitted. I say, Israel should kick him out. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/58 "2005-07-13T07:23:45Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > I think the official documents I gave you maintain temperate language and to the point. Nowhere Morel nationality is even mentioned. There is, at the very least, a glut of articles talking about his case. Why? Maybe the Polish government has nothing to do with this, but I’m somwhat cynical. Even though Morel’s nationality is not mentioned, why is it that the newspapers have focused on him and not the other 12? Were any of the 12 camp commanders? If not, why haven’t the newspapers written about other camp commanders, too? > [@New Iskander](#): > > But if you want to see really serious charges against someone else, [here is Katyn massacre](http://www.ipn.gov.pl/eng/eng_news_high_katyn_press.html). You’re shifting the goal posts. How many of the camp commanders have been tried? The commander of Lamsdorf is, apparently for the last four years. I can’t seem to find a verdict, or anything about the actual trial. The charges, however, center around one single incident rather than him running the camp. Why aren’t all the camp commanders being charged? Or at least investigated? > [@New Iskander](#): > > I say, Israel should kick him out. I say Poland should charge him with a crime that’s not beyond an Israeli statute of limitations and that doesn’t attempt to recast or rewrite definitions of specific crimes under Israeli law. Say, murder. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/59 "2005-07-13T07:36:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > …why haven’t the newspapers written about other camp commanders, too? You mean Western newspapers? How is that Polish gov’t fault? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > You’re shifting the goal posts. You asked why Poles don’t charge anybody else for crimes. I gave you a cite where they charge the whole SSSR. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > I say Poland should charge him with a crime that’s not beyond an Israeli statute of limitations and that doesn’t attempt to recast or rewrite definitions of specific crimes under Israeli law. Say, murder. Charges summary: > [@](#): > > Salomon Morel is charged with creating unbearable life conditions threatening of biological annihilation in the manner that: > > he starved the prisoners - providing drastically law food rations, > > he deprived the prisoners of the basic medical care and hygienic means, what resulted in epidemic of dysentery, typhus and typhoid fever as well as in pediculosis, > > he tortured the prisoners personally and tolerated his subordinates torturing of prisoners in the manner that: > > prisoners were beaten all over their body, including their head, with hands or by kicking or beating by means of items such as: clubs, chair’s legs, rubber batons, cables, tubes covered with rubber, metal sticks and wooden stools, what often resulted in heavy injuries and death; > > prisoners were kept for hours in a dark cell, where they had to stand in water reaching their chest, what sometimes resulted in death by drowning; > > prisoners had to form so-called pyramid, where a dozen of prisoners had to lie one on another, what, in case of prisoners lying in the lower levels, resulted in heavy internal injuries and death; > > prisoners were forced to lie on the ground so that the officers would walk on them, which resulted in heavy injuries and often in death. > > Secondly, Salomon Morel is charged with physical and psychological abuse of the prisoners in the matter that he was, inter alia: > > beating the prisoners; > > forcing the prisoners to lick up coal dust from the floor; > > forcing the prisoners to beat each other – e.g. there are two revealed cases of forcing father and a son to beat each other; > > forcing the prisoners to stand for a long time outside often in bad whether conditions; > > forcing the prisoners to sing nazi songs and beating the prisoners for not knowing the lyrics. > > Salomon Morel was often beating the prisoners both with his hands as with the gun’s butt, a baton or a stool. In his presence other officers were often beating the prisoners. Remind me, what crimes were commited in Guantanamo, again? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2005, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059/60 "2005-07-13T08:21:27Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > You mean Western newspapers? How is that Polish gov’t fault? I don’t believe they were ignorant of what bringing a second set of charges would do. If they didn’t want media attention, they’d have kept it private. Or they’d have gone for the far less sensational charge of murder. They didn’t. > [@New Iskander](#): > > You asked why Poles don’t charge anybody else for crimes. I gave you a cite where they charge the whole SSSR. In case I didn’t make it clear, I was asking about the commanders of the camps run for German prisoners. Charging someone else for killing Poles is not the same thing. > [@New Iskander](#): > > Remind me, what crimes were commited in Guantanamo, again? I’m not arguing that he’s innocent. I’ve said several times that he’s probably guilty. If you want him tried for war crimes Poland should go to the Hague. If specific charges of actions he commited which caused the deaths of civilians/pow’s can be made, then he can be charged with murder. If he is to be charged with murder instead of war crimes, then that might stick. It’s actually sorta odd, I’ve not argued that he’s innocent or should get off scott free, merely that this situation is not cut and dry. The problem, as I see it, is primarily a legal one. A brief quote from Amnesty: [." In many cases, national law is inadequate to deal with such crimes. For example, the crimes are not defined as crimes under international law or their definitions, principles of criminal responsibility and defences are inconsistent with international law. Often, courts cannot exercise universal jurisdiction over suspects found in their territory or even surrender them to international courts because national laws do not authorise them to do so."](http://web.amnesty.org/pages/jus-index-eng) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-a-war-criminal-not-a-war-criminal/312059.md?page=4)