# When is it "conservative" to get rid of government agencies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2020, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869 "2020-04-15T18:42:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/1 "2020-04-15T18:42:54Z")
I’m confused by the term ‘conservative’ as applied to dismantling government agencies. According to conservatives and self-described ‘centrists’ or ‘moderates’, calls to dismantle ICE, an agency that has been around for less than 20 years and is not mentioned in the consitution, are a dangerous, outrageous, radical position. Yet at the same time, conservatives and their supporters are actively working to dismantle the USPS, an agency which has been a part of the US since before Britain recognized the US as a country and which is mentioned in the constitution. I am not clear on exactly how calling for the abolition of the post office as a government agency is ‘conservative’, but doing the same for ICE when the Post Office has a much longer history. Can anyone explain how going back to the way things were 20 years ago is radical and definitely not conservative, but dismantling a government agency which has existed longer than the country has been independent is not a radical position at all? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/2 "2020-04-15T19:47:57Z")
ICE serves a necessary government function. The USPS does not. The conservative position is that government should only do necessary government functions and nothing else. The age of an agency has nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/3 "2020-04-15T20:02:52Z")
Trump is trying to dismantle or render powerless just about _every_ government agency. Look who he’s got on his cabinet, for example. Look who he’s got running the EPA. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/4 "2020-04-15T20:05:09Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > ICE serves a necessary government function. The USPS does not. The conservative position is that government should only do necessary government functions and nothing else. The age of an agency has nothing to do with it. This is clearly untrue, as the government functioned without ICE from 1776 until 2002. ICE’s functions can and were handled by other agencies, so clearly by a strict definition of ‘necessary’ it is not needed. Meanwhile the USPS does serve the necessary function of moving mail affordably throughout the entire country, which is needed for things like voting and tax payment which are key to a functioning government. While it’s not impossible to concieve of a government without a government run post office, it’s certainly higher on the ‘useful’ scale than an agency we didn’t even have twenty years ago. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/5 "2020-04-15T20:05:34Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > ICE serves a necessary government function. The USPS does not. The conservative position is that government should only do necessary government functions and nothing else. The age of an agency has nothing to do with it. I believe that the USPS is necessary and ICE is not (other agencies can and do the legitimate parts of ICE’s duties), and thus the conservative position (IMO) is to maintain the USPS and get rid of ICE. Your opinion is no more valid (and no more “conservative”) than mine. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/6 "2020-04-15T20:08:40Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Trump is trying to dismantle or render powerless just about _every_ government agency. Look who he’s got on his cabinet, for example. Look who he’s got running the EPA. I’m not interested in anything about Trump specifically, I’m talking about the word usage. That’s why I posted in GD and not P&E, though this one could fir either. What I want to discuss is how people to justify saying that calls to get rid of a new agency that was created by the legislature (ICE) are radical but calls to get rid of a long-running agency that performs multiple major government functions and was created by the constitution (USPS) are conservative. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/7 "2020-04-15T20:13:03Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > ICE serves a necessary government function. The USPS does not. The conservative position is that government should only do necessary government functions and nothing else. The age of an agency has nothing to do with it. Lets see what the conservative government in Arizona said about what is [essential](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&ei=fGqXXqHAAteu0PEPmKe6kAk&q=necessary+synonym+essential&oq=necessary+synonym+essential&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIGCAAQFhAeOgIIADoICAAQFhAKEB5KDggXEgoxMS0yMDRnMTA4SgoIGBIGMTEtMmc4UHJYjCRgniZoAHAAeACAAZMCiAG1CZIBBTUuNC4xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwih7szknuvoAhVXFzQIHZiTDpIQ4dUDCAs&uact=5): > **[Post Office in Phoenix, AZ - Hours and Location](https://www.postallocations.com/az/phoenix/phoenix)** > > Post Office in Phoenix, Arizona on E Van Buren St Rm 187. Operating hours, phone number, services information, and other locations near you. > [@](#): > > Phoenix Post Office > The Postal Service is classified as an essential government service, and will remain open wherever possible. [https://azgovernor.gov/governor/news/2020/03/governor-ducey-issues-executive-order-detailing-essential-services](https://azgovernor.gov/governor/news/2020/03/governor-ducey-issues-executive-order-detailing-essential-services) ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/8 "2020-04-15T20:14:49Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > ICE serves a necessary government function. The USPS does not. The conservative position is that government should only do necessary government functions and nothing else. The age of an agency has nothing to do with it. I believe these are _both_ necessary functions. The postal service delivers to rural addresses. Private mailing services would not have to do this, or could charge more than they would for urban deliveries. (We saw something like this in Canada recently, when Greyhound Canada shut down most routes in western Canada. It’s a private company, so they can do this. Those lines were losing them money. A publicly-operated organization doesn’t need to make profit, just meet its expenses, and is willing to take losses in money-losing regions if they can make a profit in profitable regions. Canada Post, our equivalent, took some unpopular actions to reduce service in rural regions, and Canada Post is a “crown corporation”!) ICE serves a useful function (when it’s not being used by a racist president to arrest children at the border). Open borders are very rare, even with friendly nations. Even though ICE itself may be new, border guarding has gone on for longer. Changing the ICE makes sense, but trying to get rid of it is the kind of overreach that causes Democrats to lose votes. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/9 "2020-04-15T20:33:44Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > This is clearly untrue, as the government functioned without ICE from 1776 until 2002. ICE’s functions can and were handled by other agencies, so clearly by a strict definition of ‘necessary’ it is not needed. Meanwhile the USPS does serve the necessary function of moving mail affordably throughout the entire country, which is needed for things like voting and tax payment which are key to a functioning government. While it’s not impossible to concieve of a government without a government run post office, it’s certainly higher on the ‘useful’ scale than an agency we didn’t even have twenty years ago. The USPS could be closed and the mail delivered by a new service the US Mail service. ICE’s name may be different than what came before but the function is what is necessary. If you want to debate the idea that the agency must always have the exact same name, it is a silly question. There are plenty of other ways to move messages across the country other than the USPS, they have a government enforced monopoly but if that were taken away the need for message delivery would still exist and companies would try to fill that need. The worst thing that would happen is that some people might have to drive further or pay more to access the system. On the other hand, if there is a border, then there needs to be immigration and customs enforcement. That is a police job and can only be done by the government under current law and custom. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/10 "2020-04-15T20:36:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I believe that the USPS is necessary and ICE is not (other agencies can and do the legitimate parts of ICE’s duties), and thus the conservative position (IMO) is to maintain the USPS and get rid of ICE. Your opinion is no more valid (and no more “conservative”) than mine. Since I am a conservative and you are not then my opinions are more valid as to what is conservative than yours. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/11 "2020-04-15T20:38:34Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Lets see what the conservative government in Arizona said about what is [essential](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&ei=fGqXXqHAAteu0PEPmKe6kAk&q=necessary+synonym+essential&oq=necessary+synonym+essential&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIGCAAQFhAeOgIIADoICAAQFhAKEB5KDggXEgoxMS0yMDRnMTA4SgoIGBIGMTEtMmc4UHJYjCRgniZoAHAAeACAAZMCiAG1CZIBBTUuNC4xmAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwih7szknuvoAhVXFzQIHZiTDpIQ4dUDCAs&uact=5): > > [Post Office in Phoenix, AZ - Hours and Location](https://www.postallocations.com/az/phoenix/phoenix) > [https://azgovernor.gov/governor/news/2020/03/governor-ducey-issues-executive-order-detailing-essential-services](https://azgovernor.gov/governor/news/2020/03/governor-ducey-issues-executive-order-detailing-essential-services) This is not the first time Arizona has been wrong. Message delivery may be an essential service, but it is not necessary for the government to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/12 "2020-04-15T20:40:21Z")
Since I am a conservative who does not support dismantling USPS, I don’t know how the OP would prefer I reply. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/13 "2020-04-15T21:21:24Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > This is not the first time Arizona has been wrong. Message delivery may be an essential service, but it is not necessary for the government to do it. Well, AFAIK, no conservative governor has arrived to your say so in this pandemic. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/14 "2020-04-15T21:36:43Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > On the other hand, if there is a border, then there needs to be immigration and customs enforcement. That is a police job and can only be done by the government under current law and custom. By “current law and custom” only the USPS can deliver mail the way it does as well. It is illegal, for example, for other carriers to put things into your mailbox. We could use hire private services as well. But why couldn’t immigration and customs enforcement be privatized? There are private police forces. Most colleges have them, for example. (I do realize that most colleges are much to liberal to consider, but they do have private police forces.) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/15 "2020-04-15T22:50:59Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > ICE serves a necessary government function. The USPS does not. The conservative position is that government should only do necessary government functions and nothing else. The age of an agency has nothing to do with it. As far as I can tell, the bill to abolish ICE has about ten liberal cosponsors. The bill to abolish the IRS has about three times as many conservative cosponsors. Is it the conservative position that no agency is needed to collect tax revenue? ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/16 "2020-04-15T23:10:05Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > According to conservatives and self-described ‘centrists’ or ‘moderates’, calls to dismantle ICE, an agency that has been around for less than 20 years and is not mentioned in the consitution, are a dangerous, outrageous, radical position. This is disingenuous. ICE was the result of a massive reorg done in the wake of 9/11 but all of the functions of ICE were previously done by the USCS, INS and other immigration authorities. The INS dates back to 1933, the USCS dates back to 1789. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/17 "2020-04-15T23:26:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > As far as I can tell, the bill to abolish ICE has about ten liberal cosponsors. The bill to abolish the IRS has about three times as many conservative cosponsors. > > Is it the conservative position that no agency is needed to collect tax revenue? Conservatives vary in intelligence like anyone else. Idiot conservatives want to starve the government of funds. (Smarter conservatives in Canada decided they wanted to starve **and blind** the government, such as getting rid of the census. Fortunately, they didn’t succeed.) > [@OldGuy](#): > > By “current law and custom” only the USPS can deliver mail the way it does as well. It is illegal, for example, for other carriers to put things into your mailbox. We could use hire private services as well. But why couldn’t immigration and customs enforcement be privatized? There are private police forces. Most colleges have them, for example. (I do realize that most colleges are much to liberal to consider, but they do have private police forces.) Immigration should not be privatized. There are some things the government is better at than private businesses, and some things it is worse at. Immigration is definitely government territory. It would do a better job of following government-written immigration law. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/18 "2020-04-16T00:51:53Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > Conservatives vary in intelligence like anyone else. Idiot conservatives want to starve the government of funds. (Smarter conservatives in Canada decided they wanted to starve **and blind** the government, such as getting rid of the census. Fortunately, they didn’t succeed.) > . The poster I was responding to wrote: “ The conservative position is that government should only do necessary government functions and nothing else.“ If he’s going to use broad brush strokes to talk about conservatives only wanting necessary functions, then he deserves to be questioned if the IRS is not necessary. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/19 "2020-04-16T04:07:32Z")
Tramp’s ass-kissers are radical reactionaries, not conservatives. His enablers are would-be slave owners. The opposite of liberal is not conservative, but enslaved. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/20 "2020-04-16T11:50:14Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > The USPS could be closed and the mail delivered by a new service the US Mail service. And ICE could be closed and immigration distributed across other agencies exactly like it was less than twenty years ago. Again, why is doing this with a much newer agency radical, but doing it to an agency that has existed longer than the Constitution conservative? Your ‘necessary’ critera falls apart, as you have failed to articulate a clear definition of ‘necessary’, it just seems to be ‘what you like’ vs ‘what you don’t like’. > [@](#): > > ICE’s name may be different than what came before but the function is what is necessary. If you want to debate the idea that the agency must always have the exact same name, it is a silly question. It’s function is clearly not necessary, as the function was handled by separate agencies without the consolidation into ICE before ICE was invented less than twenty years ago. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869.md?page=2)