# When is it "conservative" to get rid of government agencies? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2020, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869 "2020-04-15T18:42:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/21 "2020-04-16T11:51:38Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > This is disingenuous. ICE was the result of a massive reorg done in the wake of 9/11 but all of the functions of ICE were previously done by the USCS, INS and other immigration authorities. The INS dates back to 1933, the USCS dates back to 1789. It’s not ‘disingenuous’ at all, it’s simple fact. ICE as an agency simply didn’t exist and it’s functions were handled by other agencies, dismantling it as an organization and splitting it’s functions like they were previously is exactly what is being talked about here. Pretending that it’s ‘disingenuous’ to talk about the subject of the thread is simple nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/22 "2020-04-16T12:43:49Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > It’s not ‘disingenuous’ at all, it’s simple fact. ICE as an agency simply didn’t exist and it’s functions were handled by other agencies, dismantling it as an organization and splitting it’s functions like they were previously is exactly what is being talked about here. Pretending that it’s ‘disingenuous’ to talk about the subject of the thread is simple nonsense. Nobody who is advocating for abolishing ICE is saying they would be fine with the same job functions being performed just with different badges on the uniform. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/23 "2020-04-16T18:48:41Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Nobody who is advocating for abolishing ICE is saying they would be fine with the same job functions being performed just with different badges on the uniform. _crickets_ ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/24 "2020-04-16T18:54:31Z")
> [@Shalmanese](#): > > Nobody who is advocating for abolishing ICE is saying they would be fine with the same job functions being performed just with different badges on the uniform. The legitimate job functions, sure. But not the harassment, the racial profiling, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/25 "2020-04-16T19:16:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The legitimate job functions, sure. But not the harassment, the racial profiling, etc. Haha! ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/26 "2020-04-16T22:48:37Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > By “current law and custom” only the USPS can deliver mail the way it does as well. It is illegal, for example, for other carriers to put things into your mailbox. That could be changed and maybe should be already. Are you under the mistaken assumption that the USPS pays for or maintains private mailboxes? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/27 "2020-04-16T23:02:37Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > ICE serves a necessary government function. The USPS does not. The conservative position is that government should only do necessary government functions and nothing else. The age of an agency has nothing to do with it. First of all, that explanation insists upon itself. What are the “necessary government functions”? Clearly lawmaking and national defense are there. Presumably some level of national law enforcement (unless you assume criminals should be able to get a pass by crossing into the next state). After that I suppose it gets a bit fuzzy with things like national infrastructure and other services. Although I suppose the answer in a democracy is whatever people vote should be at the Federal level. [Second, I think nearly every nation on Earth has some sort of nationalized postal system.](countries without a national postal service) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/28 "2020-04-16T23:05:21Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > That could be changed and maybe should be already. Are you under the mistaken assumption that the USPS pays for or maintains private mailboxes? I don’t read that implied at all. Where are you getting this stuff? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/29 "2020-04-16T23:09:46Z")
We already know that private companies are not capable of competing with the USPS. They can do the easy parts just as easily, but they can’t do the hard parts. There are an awful lot of addresses where, if you FedEx or UPS a package to them, the private company will just turn around, take it to the post office, and stick a stamp on it. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2020, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/30 "2020-04-16T23:45:20Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > That could be changed and maybe should be already. Are you under the mistaken assumption that the USPS pays for or maintains private mailboxes? No of course they don’t, but by law other delivery services cannot use them. I was replying to a poster who said “under current law …” so I responded with the same premise. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/31 "2020-04-17T00:58:19Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > Tramp’s ass-kissers are radical reactionaries, not conservatives. His enablers are would-be slave owners. The opposite of liberal is not conservative, but enslaved. Tone it down, please. Hurling insults around does nothing to promote a serious discussion. Making up definitions of your own also fails to promote serious discussion. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/32 "2020-04-17T16:47:38Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > First of all, that explanation insists upon itself. What are the “necessary government functions”? Clearly lawmaking and national defense are there. Presumably some level of national law enforcement (unless you assume criminals should be able to get a pass by crossing into the next state). After that I suppose it gets a bit fuzzy with things like national infrastructure and other services. Although I suppose the answer in a democracy is whatever people vote should be at the Federal level. > > [Second, I think nearly every nation on Earth has some sort of nationalized postal system.](countries without a national postal service) If a majority of people want something it does not mean it is necessary only that it is wanted. Germany, the UK, and Portugal all have privatized their mail service. Japan is currently in the latter stages of privatizing theirs. Until they were outlawed the US had private postal companies competing with the US. The problem that the USPS has is with Congress. They are not allowed to raise their prices without permission, they are not allowed to cut services or close poorly performing branches, they have to negotiate with government unions, and provide similar pensions as other government employees. Any business that cannot raise revenues or cut costs will lose money, the USPS loses about $5 billion a year and has been doing so since the turn of the century. Either the USPS is privatized and they are allowed to reorganized in a way that it is possible not to lose money or the US government will need to bail them out and the amount needed for the bailout goes up every year. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2020, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/33 "2020-04-17T22:41:31Z")
The post office was certainly considered a legitimate government function in 1787, since Postmaster General and post roads are both mentioned explicitly in the constitution. I assume that most of the founders thought it necessary as well. Privatizing the PO and leaving it to whims of private companies would be likely to do the most damage to rural dwellers. Well maybe they should have to pay more for mail service since they certainly pay much less for rent. Hmm. It would certainly complicate vote by mail if you took away all the mail boxes. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/34 "2020-04-18T05:20:43Z")
Well, the founders were wrong except when they weren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/35 "2020-04-18T07:51:36Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > Can anyone explain how going back to the way things were 20 years ago is radical and definitely not conservative, but dismantling a government agency which has existed longer than the country has been independent is not a radical position at all? I’m conservative (not ‘A Conservative’), and I don’t have any trouble confusing conservatives with Conservatives. It’s just a label. But over my life, I’ve noticed that the radicals I come in contact with have a much narrower view of the world than I do. They want radical change because they can’t consider other options. As a conservative person, I like to accept and improve that which we have, and **I’m willing to include international and historical experience**. Although I don’t have an opinion on dismantling the USPO, if I did form an opinion, it wouldn’t be on the basis that the American way is the only way that could work in America because America is exceptional. That’s not a conservative position: that’s a reactionary position. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/36 "2020-04-18T14:15:58Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > I’m conservative (not ‘A Conservative’), and I don’t have any trouble confusing conservatives with Conservatives. It’s just a label. But over my life, I’ve noticed that the radicals I come in contact with have a much narrower view of the world than I do. They want radical change because they can’t consider other options. As a conservative person, I like to accept and improve that which we have, and **I’m willing to include international and historical experience**. Have you considered that radicals “feel” more radical to you not because their positions have changed, but because in many ways over the past decades the people whose voices they tend to represent have consistently and programatically been divested of power. > [@](#): > > As a conservative person, I like to accept and improve that which we have, and **I’m willing to include international and historical experience**. Although I don’t have an opinion on dismantling the USPO, if I did form an opinion, it wouldn’t be on the basis that the American way is the only way that could work in America because America is exceptional. That’s not a conservative position: that’s a reactionary position. Is this a joke? Perhaps you would like to explain to conservatives how insisting that America just can’t do what other countries are doing with regards to social safety nets, health care, gun laws, and a host of other programs because “it just can’t work in America, because America is exceptional” is not actually their conservative, but reactionary. :rolleyes: And this ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/37 "2020-04-18T15:24:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **puddleglum** : > The problem that the USPS has is with Congress. They are not allowed to raise their prices without permission, they are not allowed to cut services or close poorly performing branches, they have to negotiate with government unions, and provide similar pensions as other government employees. > Any business that cannot raise revenues or cut costs will lose money, the USPS loses about $5 billion a year and has been doing so since the turn of the century. Either the USPS is privatized and they are allowed to reorganized in a way that it is possible not to lose money or the US government will need to bail them out and the amount needed for the bailout goes up every year. In other words, the Post Office is under constant attack from conservatives trying to strangle it, so we should try to strangle it even more. The fact is, even with all of those ridiculous constraints put on the Post Office, they’re still capable of doing things the private companies that still exist and still compete with them are not capable of. They’re a government service that works extremely well, and that’s the main reason “conservatives” oppose them: Because they put the lie to the “conservative” claim that government is inherently incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/38 "2020-04-18T15:31:00Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > No of course they don’t, but by law other delivery services cannot use them. I was replying to a poster who said “under current law …” so I responded with the same premise. Thanks, I understand. Its quite possible that some people could think that though. Sorry to put you on the defensive. Are you good with changing the law to allow people to accept other stuff being put in their mailbox? ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2020, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/39 "2020-04-19T01:40:02Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Have you considered that radicals “feel” more radical to you not because their positions have changed, but because in many ways over the past decades the people whose voices they tend to represent have consistently and programatically been divested of power. I’m old enough so that “the past decades” are only a part of my education and personal experience. And I didn’t say anything about radicals changing their positions: that’s on you. > [@Eonwe](#): > > Is this a joke? Perhaps you would like to explain to conservatives how insisting that America just can’t do what other countries are doing with regards to social safety nets, health care, gun laws, and a host of other programs because “it just can’t work in America, because America is exceptional” is not actually their conservative, but reactionary. :rolleyes: > > And this Well, I was talking about the USPO, which is both a particular subject of the OP, and specifically referenced in my post. But since you ask, I’ll repeat, that as a conservative, not a Conservative (did you read that part of the post?), I’m comfortable with considering and improving things that are already in place in other countries and cultures, not limiting myself to just the way things are done my own family, college, and language group. As a conservative, I used to discuss stuff with my radical friends and acquaintances. They listened: they didn’t made up stuff and attribute it to me. If it had been otherwise, I wouldn’t have bothered discussing stuff with them. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2020, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869/40 "2020-04-19T07:11:29Z")
A conservative wishes for things to remain much as they are, keeping the old, distrustful of the new. That doesn’t work well in a fast-changing world. A reactionary despises liberating social changes, striving to abolish the present and supposedly return to an old vision, preferably with themselves in charge. Historically, the “liberal arts” are the body of knowledge necessary to be a free person. That’s why I say the opposite of liberal is not conservative, but enslaved. So, the question: When is it “conservative” to get rid of government agencies? When they don’t work and can’t be fixed short of termination. Destroying agencies because they actually benefit the population is reactionary crap. Beware those who want to eliminate services and protections. They ain’t our friends. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-conservative-to-get-rid-of-government-agencies/851869.md?page=3)