# When Is It OK To Say I Should't Care About A Creator's Morality? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 3, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588 "2014-05-03T16:24:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/101 "2014-06-30T02:59:06Z")
I’ve read only two Bradley books—Mists of Avalon and Firebrand. Both were on my list of favorite novels of all time when I was a teenager. Haven’t re-read them in years though. If I do re-read them I hope I will judge them on their merits standing by themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/102 "2014-06-30T05:35:55Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > To you, maybe. Or maybe not. Look at Nirvana – Kurt Cobain was a huge fan of Leadbelly. One of their best performances was when they covered “In the Pines” during their appearance on _Unplugged_. Leadbelly, however, was a murderer and spent at least one stint in prison. But I’m not going to stop listening to Nirvana. I’m not going to stop listening to Leadbelly, either, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/103 "2014-06-30T05:48:31Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Of course. > > However, I was using the word “douchebag” to refer to evil people in general. That’s pretty mild invective for a wifebeater, then. And no, I’m not a huge John Lennon fan. Ringo was always my favourite Beatle. > [@](#): > > (WTF is wrong with Zeppelin?) They were misogynists who treated groupies like crap? > [@](#): > > Leadbelly, however, was a murderer and spent at least one stint in prison. Leadbelly did the time for his crime, and his crime is no secret to his fans. MZB, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/104 "2014-06-30T14:07:05Z")
Ringo was also a wife beater, I believe. Paul was the only decent one of the bunch. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2014, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/105 "2014-06-30T15:50:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Ringo was also a wife beater, I believe. News to me. I know he wasn’t a faithful man, but that’s kind of none of my business in a way other things aren’t. Cite? ETA: Never mind, found a quote from Ringo. That’s a pity. Wings it is, then… ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/106 "2014-07-03T14:43:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > No, I didn’t. Not in that first post. > > You realise there’s a _world_ of difference between “douchebag”, “cheat” or “racist” and “rapist”, right? Yeah, I keep coming back to this as I’ve been reading this. There is a world of difference between having some distasteful opinions (we all have them, FYI) and committing crimes against children, I mean come on. Anne Perry is another one for me…she committed murder in cold blood. Her books are good, but meh, I’m not interested…there are plenty of books out there to read. Now MAYBE if there was true literary merit to them, but there isn’t in her case nor in the case of MZB, so why should I have to have it in the back of my mind that I’m reading the work of someone who committed or contributed to horrific crimes? And if you’re reading it after you’ve found that out, and it doesn’t enter your mind to be a bit squicked out by that, or think it’s the same thing as old-school racism or other OPINIONS you don’t agree with or find distasteful, then that is kind of weird to me. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/107 "2014-07-03T15:05:04Z")
And I’ll add this as well…deciding that the crime had nothing to do with the artistic work and therefore you’re OK to enjoy the work is one thing. Completely defensible. Lengthy complicated arguments explaining that the crime wasn’t really a crime, or that it wasn’t SO bad, or it was mitigated somehow by the art or by some nebulous inspiration or help given to other artists…well that’s kind of messed up, in my opnion. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/108 "2014-07-03T17:51:36Z")
Anne Perry, that’s a a good example. Yeah, I read a few of her books, then learned about the murder and have never been able to return to the books. I think the fact that they are murder mysteries makes it worse. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/109 "2014-07-03T20:14:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Everyone’s so hung up on whether authors profit, and ignore another other reason people write: fame, reputation, immortality of a sort. That’s the part that I think should be obliterated for despicable creators - that their name never be mentioned without a caveat. “Oh, she could write…but she willingly covered up kiddiefucking” “He danced like a god - but he loved ‘sleepovers’ with kids at his fantasy playpark” “Oh, he could sing…but he beat up his girlfriend and was unrepentant about it\*” “He tells a good story…but he was a homophobic bigot”. I desire these should be their epitaphs. > > \*Note - i don’t think Chris Brown _can_ sing. Are you consistent in your stance? Would you apply the same rule to other crimes? Would you apply it too to historical figures? For instance “X was an efficient prime minister but also a fucking racist (like mostly everyone at the time)?” I don’t really see where what is described in this thread amounts to advocacy of pedophilia. You seem to dislike the idea that the rapist is depicted as having redeeming qualities. It makes me think of the Hayes code. Would you want us to coe back to a time when he criminal was never to be depicted in a positive light and has to get his comeuppance at the end? Because I at least would hate that. Also, after a quick google search, it doesn’t seem that MZB has ever been convicted for the crime you’re mentioning. So, here also I have an issue with condemning someone on the basis of unproven suspicions. I must admit that I’m also wary of aspersions made about pedophilia. This issue has long reached the level of collective hysteria, IMO. That’s one of the reasons why I suspect your stance would be different if the author was instead a suspected murderer, or a famous general who also was supportive of extremere right policies, or a known politician who supported slavery, and so on… ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/110 "2014-07-03T20:28:47Z")
For the record, what I know about an author does affect my willingness to read/watch his work. For instance I lost interest in reading Pablo Neruda after I read about his political stances during his life. But it’s quite a bit random. Sometimes I feel like this, sometimes I don’t. No consistency here. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/111 "2014-07-03T20:31:19Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Also, after a quick google search, it doesn’t seem that MZB has ever been convicted for the crime you’re mentioning. So, here also I have an issue with condemning someone on the basis of unproven suspicions. Understandable, but you have to understand that the immediate claims has just come out and has been pretty much confirmed by two people now ( two of MZB’s three children ), with a third having admitted to one of those children having complained of the same thing many years ago. That combined with the rather hinky testimony she gave on the case involving her ex-husband, leads to a pretty solid circumstantial case for guilt. That’s even leaving aside the issues that originally upset people, which was her sheltering and supporting her ex despite proven accusations against him ( he died in prison after being convicted ). She died years ago, so we’ll probably never know for sure. But IMHO the likelihood she committed these crimes are pretty decent and even she hadn’t her relationship with her ex are kind of damning by her own words. Like I said earlier ( maybe in the other thread ) it kind of changes things for me that she’s long dead and I’m not inclined to be interested in her oeuvre anymore anyway. But I certainly can understand not being able to emotionally get past this stuff. It’s pretty ugly. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/112 "2014-07-03T20:40:22Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > For the record, what I know about an author does affect my willingness to read/watch his work. For instance I lost interest in reading Pablo Neruda after I read about his political stances during his life. But it’s quite a bit random. Sometimes I feel like this, sometimes I don’t. No consistency here. This is my stance as well. If something particularly henious grabs my attention, it may well turn me off a creator - but I most certainly DO NOT “screen” creators in any consistent or systematic way, and feel no obligation to do so. The same is true in reverse - sometimes I find out some detail I like about an author or creator, some act of kindness or grace, and I find myself more interested in them - even if it turns out that creator was otherwise a giant asshole. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/113 "2014-07-03T20:41:49Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Understandable, but you have to understand that the immediate claims has just come out and has been pretty much confirmed by two people now ( two of MZB’s three children ), with a third having admitted to one of those children having complained of the same thing many years ago. That combined with the rather hinky testimony she gave on the case involving her ex-husband, leads to a pretty solid circumstantial case for guilt. That’s even leaving aside the issues that originally upset people, which was her sheltering and supporting her ex despite proven accusations against him ( he died in prison after being convicted ). OK. I also read the provided link too, so I’m willing to admit that she was probably a very bad person. I also checked what she wrote, and apparently, the only ones I read are some of the Avalon serie. I’ve no particular opinion about her as an author. So I probably wouldn’t be enthralled at the prospect of reading her books, but I still wouldn’t think it was a moral failure if I nevertheless did. Especially since, as mentioned several times, she’s quite dead now. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/114 "2014-07-03T21:36:24Z")
Okay, just for the sake of argument, let’s say the allegations are false. That still doesn’t change the fact that she covered-up for and even aided her husband when he was molesting children himself. As far as I’m concerned that’s enough to make her guilty. I don’t think it’s a moral failure if anyone reads her books, as I’ve been arguing. But I wouldn’t defend HER. That’s when fans do start to scare me – remember when Michael Jackson was accused? And his fans went apeshit? Yeah. Sometimes great works of art are created by awful people. I might defend the art itself, but not the artist. (As for MZB, like I said, I only managed to read one of her books, years ago, and I hated it.) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/115 "2014-07-03T23:48:01Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > For the record, what I know about an author does affect my willingness to read/watch his work. For instance I lost interest in reading Pablo Neruda after I read about his political stances during his life. But it’s quite a bit random. Sometimes I feel like this, sometimes I don’t. No consistency here. This makes sense; it’s the sort of thing that has a lot of individual nuance. Harlan Ellison groped women – but, well, if you read his own words, so did Isaac Asimov. He did so more smoothly; Asimov “flirted” and hugged and patted. He didn’t just grab, but he was, nevertheless, very physical. We don’t know how many women felt uncomfortable with him for this. We’re essentially giving Asimov an okay, and Ellison our disapproval, on the basis of Asimov’s better ability to read his audience and not to push too hard at the boundaries. He did push at the boundaries, but he didn’t just knock them down flat the way Ellison did. So far, I’ve never had to face the loss of a favorite writer (or other artist) because of such misbehavior. I used to be quite fond of Orson Scott Card, until he went out of his way to be insultingly unpleasant. He could have redeemed himself with a few diplomatic words, but, instead, he came out jeering. Well, okay, hell with him, then. But he wasn’t on my “favorites” list anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/116 "2014-07-03T23:56:49Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Are you consistent in your stance? Would you apply the same rule to other crimes? Would you apply it too to historical figures? For instance “X was an efficient prime minister but also a fucking racist (like mostly everyone at the time)?” Isn’t there a bit of a difference there, though. If X was an efficient prime minister and also a fucking racist, but pretty much everyone in his time was also a fucking racist, and he wasn’t significant’y more racist than his contemporaries, that maybe just means that he’s a product of his time, and while his racism wasn’t a good thing, it’s mitigated by the fact that he lived in a time and place where such racism was taught and encouraged. But MZB, if the accusations are true, and her husband weren’t raised to believe that it was ok to have sex with young children. They didn’t live in a society that encouraged or promoted that, so they don’t get the same kind of excuse. You can’t, in their case, indict their entire culture, just them personally. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/117 "2014-07-04T04:50:23Z")
Fascinating topic. Have never read MZB but have read a couple of books by Card, before “all this happened”. I would not now purchase a book by him and will, next time I sort through my shelf, rid myself of them, tossing rather than donating to library sales. (I figure that if someone picks it up used and likes it they might buy other works new and I don’t want to encourage that even backhandedly.) ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/118 "2014-07-04T06:43:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Anne Perry, that’s a a good example. Yeah, I read a few of her books, then learned about the murder and have never been able to return to the books. I think the fact that they are murder mysteries makes it worse. Actually I would be interested in reading murder mysteries by an author who has committed a murder. They would have real insight on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/119 "2014-07-04T09:03:46Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Are you consistent in your stance? I’d like to think so, yes. > [@](#): > > Would you apply the same rule to other crimes? Depends on the crime - I don’t particularly care if some is a once-off, crime-of-passion type murderer, or a thief, or a _private_ racist, even. Like, say, private homophobia isn’t going to lead me to not read someone - but what OS Card does is bigger. Also, it matters to me if a person has actually paid for their crimes - if they’ve been jailed or otherwise dealt with, I’m quite happy to give them a clean slate. This would count even for crimes I otherwise find pretty unforgivable, as long as the degree of punishment meets my own personal standard (no 1-year rape sentences, for instance) > [@](#): > > Would you apply it too to historical figures? For instance “X was an efficient prime minister but also a fucking racist (like mostly everyone at the time)?” No, I’m willing to look at _some_ things through the lens of history - racism or sexism or homophobia in the 1700s is one thing, for instance, but still being pro-slavery in 1850 is too much, or being anti-gay in the 1990s is too much, or being a racist in 1960 is too much. That kind of thing. Take HP Lovecraft. Dude was _uber_-racist even for the 1930s, which were not the most PC of times. So I don’t buy his books. But he was only verbally racist, so I do read them when I get them free online and I read them hyper-critically when I do. But I’m not going to even read OSC or MZB again > [@](#): > > I don’t really see where what is described in this thread amounts to advocacy of pedophilia. You seem to dislike the idea that the rapist is depicted as having redeeming qualities. It makes me think of the Hayes code. Would you want us to coe back to a time when he criminal was never to be depicted in a positive light and has to get his comeuppance at the end? Because I at least would hate that. It’s situational, isn’t it? If the person doing the redemptive arc is someone I trust (Iain Banks has done this, so has China Miéville, so has Alan Moore) then I’m cool with it. MZB, not so much. > [@](#): > > Also, after a quick google search, it doesn’t seem that MZB has ever been convicted for the crime you’re mentioning. So, here also I have an issue with condemning someone on the basis of unproven suspicions. I could give a shit about whether she was convicted. She admitted to at least some of it in court testimony, that’s proof enough. It’s a stupid statement, to equate unconvicted with unproven. > [@](#): > > I must admit that I’m also wary of aspersions made about pedophilia. This issue has long reached the level of collective hysteria, IMO. That’s one of the reasons why I suspect your stance would be different if the author was instead a suspected murderer, or a famous general who also was supportive of extremere right policies, or a known politician who supported slavery, and so on… So you want to call me a hypocrite, but don’t have the balls to actually say it, only to couch it in weasel-words like “suspect”? Like I said, I treat OSC exactly the same as I treat MZB. So take your “suspicions” and shove them up your jumper (which is all I’ll say outside the Pit thread) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2014, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588/120 "2014-07-04T09:11:32Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > For the record, what I know about an author does affect my willingness to read/watch his work. For instance I lost interest in reading Pablo Neruda after I read about his political stances during his life. But it’s quite a bit random. Sometimes I feel like this, sometimes I don’t. No consistency here. And that’s fine. For _you_. But I _do_ approach it more systematically, and that should be OK too, rather than you projecting your inconsistency onto me. I mean, I can’t say I’m never going to watch _Thomas the Tank Engine_ again, or listen to _Octopus’s Garden_, but just this thread has certainly made me unlikely to ever buy a Ringo Starr solo work. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-ok-to-say-i-shouldt-care-about-a-creators-morality/687588.md?page=7)