# When is it okay to speak badly about the Dead?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 23, 2025, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327 "2025-09-23T10:54:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/21 "2025-09-23T14:20:40Z")
> [@Cervaise](#):
>
> I will note directly what is being sort of implied in the background of the discussion: the rules are different for public figures than they are for private figures.
>
> For private figures, it’s up to the family to decide how well or poorly they want to remember the deceased.
>
> But for public figures, this “don’t speak ill of the dead” rule is usually exploited as an opportunity to rewrite history and whitewash the deeds of their favored shithead.
>
> When a public figure dies, and they’re a thoroughgoing cockwrench, it is not just permissible to speak poorly of them, it is _urgently incumbent_ upon all of us to do so, lest their legacy be sanitized.
I concur.
> [@doreen](#):
>
> Should I really tell my former supervisor’s wife and children what a horrible, abusive asshole he was at his funeral? Is there any point in telling people who didn’t know her that was grandmother was mean? Sometimes, there might be a benefit to me in talking about it ( for example, explaining to someone why I am estranged from my family) but in the OP, what would be the purpose of bringing up his bigotry? Is there a reason, like the town is preparing to put up a monument to him or name a school after him? Or am I just telling my friend his beloved uncle was a racist, something he either already knows or won’t believe?
>
> Not every truth needs to be told. Sometimes the narrative needs to be corrected such as when people are acting as though a terrible person is a saint or a martyr or is a histrically significant person but that doesn’t apply to most people.
And this is true too… but it is less about not speaking ill of the dead and more about considering the time, place, or reason. Which is true about any language about a person, alive or dead.
Probably, standing up a the funeral in a room of people who are mourning and talking about the bad deeds of the deceased is selfish and disruptive. But letting your perspective be known when casual conversation turns to the deceased? Appropriate.
And, there is a difference between ‘speaking ill’ of someone, and speaking honestly about their intentions. "He was a jerk” or even “He was racist” is maybe speaking ill, but “he didn’t think black people in positions of responsibility could be trusted” is not speaking ill, it’s reiterating his stated position.
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### Author:  [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/22 "2025-09-23T14:50:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Which inevitably leads to “Charlie Kirk is dead. Good.”
Someone beat you to the sentiment, about a different person, a number of years ago, although I’m not certain of the exact wording.
Bette Davis: "You should never say bad things about the dead, only good… Joan Crawford is dead. Good.”
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### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/23 "2025-09-23T15:04:58Z")
I would in fact argue that the **best** time to speak badly of the dead is right after they’ve died, when their legacy and life is freshest in the public consciousness. It would be unbalanced to say that you can only speak good of someone who died, when everyone’s attention is on them, and not bad.
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/24 "2025-09-23T15:07:47Z")
Don’t hassle the dead. They have eerie powers.
Also, fuck Charlie Kirk, that racist fuckbag.
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### Author:  [@Aspenglow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspenglow)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/25 "2025-09-23T15:45:07Z")
Moderating:
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#):
>
> Also, fuck Charlie Kirk, that racist fuckbag.
Dial it back. You’re in Great Debates, not the Pit. There are plenty of other threads where it would be fine to express this sentiment. This is not one of them, even ironically.
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/26 "2025-09-23T15:54:17Z")
Acknowledged. It was a “contrast” joke, but you are correct.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/27 "2025-09-23T15:55:14Z")
> [@Eonwe](#):
>
> Probably, standing up a the funeral in a room of people who are mourning and talking about the bad deeds of the deceased is selfish and disruptive.
Yes; there are cases of people invited in to speak about the deceased at a funeral and talking about how they are burning in hell for being gay or an atheist. _That_ is the sort of thing that I both consider over the line, and an example of how the nasty people of the world won’t show any reciprocation; they’ll demand respect but never give it.
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### Author:  [@themapleleaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/themapleleaf)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/28 "2025-09-23T15:59:41Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#):
>
> I’m not sure why folk would say you oughtn’t speak ill of the dead. As an obvious example, I speak ill of Trump quite often. And won’t change my opinion of him or refrain from speaking the truth when he dies.
Same here. I spoke ill of Charlie Kirk last night. A bad person continues to have been a bad person even after they died. People speak ill of Hitler, Stalin, or Pol Pot all the time and they are all dead. I don’t see why the principle shouldn’t apply to less evil flawed people as well.
I think “Never speak ill of the dead” is another one of these hokum ideas coming from religion and superstition like the idea that lying is evil under all circumstances or the idea that you should always forgive someone no matter how many times they wrong you. My morality is based on secular values, therefore I can reject platitudes such as these and form my own opinion about what is moral.
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### Author:  [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/29 "2025-09-23T16:02:26Z")
> [@Velocity](#):
>
> I would in fact argue that the **best** time to speak badly of the dead is right after they’ve died, when their legacy and life is freshest in the public consciousness. It would be unbalanced to say that you can only speak good of someone who died, when everyone’s attention is on them, and not bad.
Upon further reflection, here’s what I would do to balance sensitivity and truth telling if I had a podcast or other major media platform that covers politics and current events and someone like Charlie Kirk was murdered: I’d spend a good five minutes or so extending my sympathy to the family, and denouncing the evils of violence. Then I’d say that because we are granting rare honors to Charlie Kirk that 99.9+% of violent crime victims don’t receive, I think we must give a fair assessment of his legacy, even if that makes people feel uncomfortable. Charlie Kirk said some unpleasant things, and if you’re not in the mood to hear them right now I would urge the listener to click away and do something else. If you’re still listening, here are some verbatim quotes from Kirk for you reflect on…
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### Author:  [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/30 "2025-09-23T16:22:49Z")
The phrase is obviously Latin, and research tells me it actually goes back to Classic-age Greece:
> **[De mortuis nil nisi bonum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_mortuis_nil_nisi_bonum)**
>
> The Latin phrase De mortuis nil nisi bonum dicendum est, "Of the dead nothing but good is to be said." — abbreviated Nil nisi bonum — is a mortuary aphorism indicating that it is socially inappropriate for the living to speak ill of the dead who cannot defend or justify themselves.
> The full Latin sentence is usually abbreviated into the phrase (De) Mortuis nihil nisi bonum, "Of the dead, \[say\] nothing but good."; whereas free translations from the Latin function as the English aphorisms: "Sp...
> Attributed to Chilon of Sparta, who was one of the Seven Sages of Greece, the aphoristic recommendation about not speaking ill of the dead was first recorded in Classical Greek, as: τὸν τεθνηκóτα μὴ κακολογεῖν (“Of the dead do not speak ill.”), in chapter 70 of Book 1 of Lives and Opinions of Eminent Philosophers, by Diogenes Laërtius, in the 4th century AD.
I’ve seen passing mention of one rationale for this, amounting to “it’s poor form to defame someone who can’t defend their reputation”. Does anyone else know of any other citable reason why the ancients felt this way? Superstition, for instance? (“Curse the dead and they’ll haunt you.”)
If their reasons don’t make any sense in our time and society, maybe there’s no valid reason for such a prohibition.
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### Author:  [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/31 "2025-09-23T16:26:22Z")
> [@gnoitall](#):
>
> I’ve seen passing mention of one rationale for this, amounting to “it’s poor form to defame someone who can’t defend their reputation”. Does anyone else know of any other citable reason why the ancients felt this way? Superstition, for instance? (“Curse the dead and they’ll haunt you.”)
If we’re talking about a public figure, even if they are deceased they still probably have people that can speak up on their behalf. So I’m not buying that particular argument.
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### Author:  [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/32 "2025-09-23T16:34:28Z")
> [@doreen](#):
>
> Should it ,really ? In all circumstances? I don’t think it has to do with religious beliefs at all. It has to do with people. Should I really tell my former supervisor’s wife and children what a horrible, abusive asshole he was at his funeral? Is there any point in telling people who didn’t know her that was grandmother was mean? Sometimes, there might be a benefit to me in talking about it ( for example, explaining to someone why I am estranged from my family) but in the OP, what would be the purpose of bringing up his bigotry? Is there a reason, like the town is preparing to put up a monument to him or name a school after him? Or am I just telling my friend his beloved uncle was a racist, something he either already knows or won’t believe?
You’ve drilled down much farther than I cared to. I was speaking generally. I see no point in bringing up bad things about someone if the subject hasn’t already been broached. I also see no good reason to remain silent when someone is sugar-coating someone who did or said hateful things.
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### Author:  [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/33 "2025-09-23T16:40:21Z")
It is never acceptable to speak badly of the Dead. Jerry’s in the R&R HoF for a reason, man. Can’t believe this even needs to be said.
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### Author:  [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/34 "2025-09-23T16:41:30Z")
> [@Dung\_Beetle](#):
>
> The purpose of all this fol-de-rol isn’t really to honor Charlie Kirk. He’s a convenient tool being used to create more division.
Yes. And also to grift. Never forget that a main defining characteristic of the MAGAts is grift.
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### Author:  [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/35 "2025-09-23T16:48:18Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#):
>
> Never forget that a main defining characteristic of the MAGAts is grift.
“… and an almost fanatical devotion to the Don!”
Stranger
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/36 "2025-09-23T16:54:10Z")
The man died in the middle of spewing yet another hate-filled attack. Any negative comments on this man have been outstripped by a factor of 10:1 with massive attempts to deify both him and his words.
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### Author:  [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/37 "2025-09-23T16:57:59Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#):
>
> It is never acceptable to speak badly of the Dead.
I’m glad they left them out of the Woodstock film.
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### Author:  [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/38 "2025-09-23T17:16:38Z")
He died of a heart attack in a drug rehab clinic. What are you talking about?
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/39 "2025-09-23T17:18:02Z")
That wasn’t supposed to link to your post, sorry. I was speaking of Kirk.
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### Author:  [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)
#### Post date: [September 23, 2025, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-it-okay-to-speak-badly-about-the-dead/1023327/40 "2025-09-23T19:57:46Z")
The person is dead. He gives no shits what you think or say about him. Can’t be hurt anymore.
I worry more about fascists and thugs threatening and carrying out evil on the living.
Now, to be polite, it’s probably not good to go wielding a sharp tongue in front of his loved ones.
Public people, whichever their stripe, take chances with their lives by spewing racist, hate filled rhetoric.
And MAGAs can go hollering til doomsday, this kid that shot Kirk was a nut bag. Just a crazy nut bag.
If he had a political thought I’m sure it was skewed and he couldn’t coherently express it, if asked. Unhinged.
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