# When is personhood achieved **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 1, 2011, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035 "2011-08-01T13:47:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilvert_s_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/21 "2011-08-02T01:12:46Z")
Other. I am convinced by Carl Sagan’s argument, in _Billions and Billions_ (his swan song), in which the decision should be based upon (lacking better criteria) whether the fetus has attained thought/consciousness. This ends up being around the end of the second trimester. I would refer you to his book for the argument - it’s too long to post here as it’s a chapter in the book. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/22 "2011-08-02T02:12:41Z")
I voted “at viability,” with that defined as “able to live outside the womb.” Obviously it would need assistance (like a premature baby) but as long as it can be removed from the mother’s body and live independently, I think it deserves a shot at life. (Note that I’m _not_ saying that the mother should be required to make this decision–it’s between her, her doctor, and the law.) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/23 "2011-08-02T02:24:39Z")
“Other”. The question is sort of like asking when does black become white. Legally we need a clear line and for that I would, when discussing abortion, go with viability, or some moderate window before to give a reasonable margin. For most pregnant women the best answer is when the woman starts thinking of it as a baby. For general legal rights stick with birth. I do not believe that there is some point when a soul enters a body. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/24 "2011-08-02T02:35:27Z")
Conception. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/25 "2011-08-02T02:40:48Z")
Sometime after birth, maybe 2 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/26 "2011-08-02T02:52:49Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > I voted “other”. > > I’d like say it’s after sentience or self-awareness develops. Unfortunately that’s a poorly defined concept, so there’s no bright line. Even if we could test for sentience or some neurophysiological correlate, it probably develops at different times for different people. I think we can put some bounds on when that happens though: clearly there can not be self awareness before the brain has wired up, and clearly there is self awareness when a child is capable of communicating with the outside world. So, somewhere between month 4-5 of pregnancy and age 2. > > Absent some magical way of determining if a particular infant is sentient, I’m content with drawing the line at either viability or birth. > [@Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](#): > > Other. I am convinced by Carl Sagan’s argument, in _Billions and Billions_ (his swan song), in which the decision should be based upon (lacking better criteria) whether the fetus has attained thought/consciousness. This ends up being around the end of the second trimester. I would refer you to his book for the argument - it’s too long to post here as it’s a chapter in the book. > [@DSeid](#): > > “Other”. The question is sort of like asking when does black become white. Legally we need a clear line and for that I would, when discussing abortion, go with viability, or some moderate window before to give a reasonable margin. For most pregnant women the best answer is when the woman starts thinking of it as a baby. For general legal rights stick with birth. I do not believe that there is some point when a soul enters a body. Basically, these. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/27 "2011-08-02T02:58:44Z")
At viability. To be perfectly honest, I tend to think of it in terms of when the loss of a pregnancy is far enough along to be tragic rather than simply very sad. I had an acquaintance who was three months pregnant when she died of a brain aneurysm, and while it’s sad that the baby died too, it’s not the same thing as if the baby had been far enough along to survive otherwise. OTOH, a coworker lost her baby at 32 weeks…that was tragic. Likewise when a trucker who knew he was having brake problems was ordered by his boss to continue and ended up killing my eight months pregnant neighbor when the brakes went completely; her husband and daughter rightly considered themselves to have suffered two losses, not just one. ---
**Author:** ![YaraMateo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/58f4c7/32.png) [@YaraMateo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YaraMateo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/28 "2011-08-02T03:46:47Z")
I don’t understand how it can any time other than conception. Even you have a miscarriage, the baby inside of you was always going to be a “person”. Abortions/miscarriage/still borns are dead babies. A dead person. As opposed to say a dead dog. Or oppose to abortion/miscarriage/still borns turning into puppies rather than their full term alive brethen who are babies. They was never, and will never, be a point where they are not a person. If you want to go the other side, that to be a person you have to do certain things. What about extremely disabled adults who depend on others for care (and machines) and always have? Are they not persons? Furthermore, babies, aren’t “person” either if you want to use the living independently as a rule. Babies can’t take care of themselves. While they’re living outside of a person, they depend on someone for all their needs. ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/29 "2011-08-02T04:06:54Z")
Judging by my Little One, between 12-18 months. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/30 "2011-08-02T04:07:51Z")
> [@YaraMateo](#): > > If you want to go the other side, that to be a person you have to do certain things. What about extremely disabled adults who depend on others for care (and machines) and always have? Are they not persons? But that’s just it. There have to be lines drawn, somewhere, at both extremities of life. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/31 "2011-08-02T04:25:42Z")
> [@YaraMateo](#): > > I don’t understand how it can any time other than conception. Even you have a miscarriage, the baby inside of you was always going to be a “person”. Abortions/miscarriage/still borns are dead babies. A dead person. As opposed to say a dead dog. Or oppose to abortion/miscarriage/still borns turning into puppies rather than their full term alive brethen who are babies. They was never, and will never, be a point where they are not a person. > > If you want to go the other side, that to be a person you have to do certain things. What about extremely disabled adults who depend on others for care (and machines) and always have? Are they not persons? Furthermore, babies, aren’t “person” either if you want to use the living independently as a rule. Babies can’t take care of themselves. While they’re living outside of a person, they depend on someone for all their needs. You can easily avert the apparent “elderly paradox” by asserting that once personhood is gained by a being, it can never be lost until death. Not arguing, just clarifying. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_the\_Immortal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6de8d8/32.png) [@Max\_the\_Immortal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_the_Immortal)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/32 "2011-08-02T04:37:42Z")
Upon incarnation. Whenever that is. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/33 "2011-08-02T04:57:08Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > But that’s just it. There have to be lines drawn, somewhere, at both extremities of life. > [@rachelellogram](#): > > You can easily avert the apparent “elderly paradox” by asserting that once personhood is gained by a being, it can never be lost until death. > > Not arguing, just clarifying. [Mod Note]No responding, no “clarifying”-_period_. This is one of those topics that heats up fast, and I’d like to keep this poll open if possible.[/Mod Note] ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/34 "2011-08-02T05:26:45Z")
The Bible equates breath with life, which implies that life begins at the moment of birth when the first breath is drawn. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/35 "2011-08-02T07:56:09Z")
Other; when brain wave activity rises above the threshold we consider the cut off for brain death. Maybe with additional research we might adjust those thresholds, and I would certainly consider exceptions for life of the mother or severe disability of the child, but I’ve seen too many babies born at seven or eight months to accept birth. ---
**Author:** ![RoniaBorkason](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9dc877/32.png) [@RoniaBorkason](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoniaBorkason)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/36 "2011-08-02T16:02:29Z")
I checked “other”, which asked for an explanation, but its a complicated subject. I think that the achievement of personhood is a continuum, starting at implantation, culminating when a child achieves reason. For legal rights, I think it should be viability(ish. Is 20 weeks, halfway cooked, too pat?). ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/37 "2011-08-02T16:13:54Z")
Other: “Personhood” is a legal construct. Nonhuman animals already deserve the same consideration, and eventually legal definitions will catch up. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/38 "2011-08-02T16:45:50Z")
Around age 21. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_Tightlips](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@Joey\_Tightlips](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_Tightlips)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/39 "2011-08-02T18:30:11Z")
Another vote for 3-4 years old or so. Until it can get around on its own and communicate, it’s just a baby. ---
**Author:** ![MacGyverInSeattle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@MacGyverInSeattle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacGyverInSeattle)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035/40 "2011-08-02T18:47:24Z")
Asked MrsGyver and she said 21 to 23 years of age. Or whenever they are self supporting. Incidentally I would vote to take personhood away from convicted felons and folks that can’t play well with others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-personhood-achieved/591035.md?page=3)