# When is political violence appropriate? When is it necessary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038 "2017-06-15T16:57:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/41 "2017-06-16T20:06:02Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The point where violence is acceptable for a cause is the point where it no longer does more harm than good. It is in the best interest of peaceful democracy to push the idea that violence actually hurts your cause. That way neither side will jump to violence as a way to win a debate. > > And, let me be clear, that doesn’t work. Violence doesn’t help you win a debate. It can be used to fight injustice, but it will cause you to lose a debate, so, if debate is still a possible way to deal with things, it’s not a good idea to jump to violence. That’s why a guy shooting a bunch of Republican Congresspeople is a fucking idiot, and actually harms the cause. > > But I also know that the Black Panthers did help with the Civil Rights movement. Because of what I said above, that’s not the story we want to tell people. But they did help. And so I do have to wonder if Antifa is setting themselves up in a similar way. The threat of violence can help level a playing field. I hope not, but I can see some parallels. > > One thing I am sure of is that there was a fundamental shift with Trump’s popularity and election. It does actually change things. The fact that the alt-right finally found a candidate to get behind very much changes things. That said candidate won really changes things. We can’t keep assuming that the old tactics, which didn’t prevent this from happening, will work this time. > > I do know one personal change I’ve made. This was the nail in the coffin for my idea that people are generally good, just with some of them flawed. For a while, I held onto that with an exception for less than 1% of people. But I can’t do that anymore. I do think there is a significant minority (perhaps at 20% of Americans) that is irredeemable–at least, by any practical means. > > And I do think we have to treat them differently than we treat the people who actually are good. That doesn’t mean violence, but it doesn’t mean sitting down to dinner and having a nice conversation, either. > > And, before you ask what I’ve done on this front, I admit I’ve not done much, but that’s because I find it extremely emotionally difficult to deal with most of the time. I mostly just have those conversations online, and stick with the people I know who I know are good people and present ideas they haven’t thought of. > > But I have a temper, and it’s really hard to even do that right. And, well, sometimes, I don’t want to even if I could. Because the world sucks, and I can’t keep everything inside, either. Perhaps the FBI needs to be made aware of you. You can self-justify any act of violence. But please consider this: we all are sure we are right on the issues. We can’t all be right. In all likelihood we all do have part of the answer; but with so many opposed to our positions we can be confident that we don’t have the whole answer. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/42 "2017-06-16T20:07:12Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > What about black voter suppression in states like Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, North Carolina, and Florida? Assuming it continues, is violence a reasonable response? Cites? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/43 "2017-06-16T20:09:56Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > What about black voter suppression in states like Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, North Carolina, and Florida? Assuming it continues, is violence a reasonable response? Oh, and what of voter suppression in the democratic primaries? You know, super delegates? Was Nixon justified in calling for violence in the stolen election of 1960? Gore in 2000? ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/44 "2017-06-16T20:15:35Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Oh, and what of voter suppression in the democratic primaries? You know, super delegates? Was Nixon justified in calling for violence in the stolen election of 1960? Gore in 2000? Voter suppression tactics have been documented and acknowledged by the GOP. > [@](#): > > In Florida, both the state’s former Republican Party chairman, Jim Greer, and its former Republican governor, Charlie Crist, told The Palm Beach Post in 2012 that the state’s voter ID law was devised to suppress Democratic votes. Mr. Greer told The Post: “The Republican Party, the strategists, the consultants, they firmly believe that early voting is bad for Republican Party candidates. It’s done for one reason and one reason only,” he said. Consultants told him “we’ve got to cut down on early voting because early voting is not good for us,” he said. > He added, “They never came in to see me and tell me we had a fraud issue. It’s all a marketing ploy.” > > As for Wisconsin’s law, two federal courts ruled this summer that the ID requirement disenfranchised citizens who had trouble obtaining an approved ID card — many of them minorities who vote Democratic. While the legal battle continues, the state has been ordered to offer an easier way to obtain identification. > > Similar laws in North Carolina and Texas were struck down this summer by federal courts that called them racially discriminatory. A federal appeals court ruling in the North Carolina case concluded that that state’s election law had targeted African-American voters because they were overwhelmingly Democrats. [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-acknowledge-leveraging-voter-id-laws-for-political-gain.html?\_r=0](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-acknowledge-leveraging-voter-id-laws-for-political-gain.html?_r=0) Since I have answered your question, will you answer mine: do blacks in states with active voter suppression have a right to use violence to end this suppression? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/45 "2017-06-16T20:19:23Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Until the opposition starts killing your politicians. The IQs on this board arent as high as we think. Thinking that 1930s solutions will solve anything. Yeah, generally it’s good advice to be sure that if you start the political violence, it is your side that has the guns. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/46 "2017-06-16T20:22:12Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Voter suppression tactics have been documented and acknowledged by the GOP. > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-acknowledge-leveraging-voter-id-laws-for-political-gain.html?\_r=0](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-acknowledge-leveraging-voter-id-laws-for-political-gain.html?_r=0) > > Since I have answered your question, will you answer mine: do blacks in states with active voter suppression have a right to use violence to end this suppression? If not, why not? You didn’t answer mine; and looser voter is laws favor dems. Its part of the game. The entire Dem machine was set up against Sen Sanders. Again, its the nature of the game. But we still vote. Violence is absolutely wrong to advocate unless you are willing to be a victim if retaliatory violence. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/47 "2017-06-16T20:25:53Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Voter suppression tactics have been documented and acknowledged by the GOP. > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-acknowledge-leveraging-voter-id-laws-for-political-gain.html?\_r=0](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/17/us/some-republicans-acknowledge-leveraging-voter-id-laws-for-political-gain.html?_r=0) > > Since I have answered your question, will you answer mine: do blacks in states with active voter suppression have a right to use violence to end this suppression? If not, why not? I know you were not asking me, but I would say at this time, no. The numbers of people suppressed are actually small, just enough to turn an election or two in the republicans favor, but not nearly enough to actually say that blacks have no say in the govt. If suppression attempts continue, then that calculous changes. For instance, people in selma in early 1965, IMHO, would have been ethically justified in engaging in violence, as their voice was being shut down by those in charge, and as such, they had no peaceful method of creating a change in their environment. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/48 "2017-06-16T20:28:10Z")
It’s not a game, it is active suppression of voting in elections by the GOP of black voters. The GOP acknowledges it. > [@](#): > > The party sent a press release to reporters on Sunday trumpeting the fact that fewer black voters cast early ballots this year than they did in 2012. “African American Early Voting is down 8.5% from this time in 2012,” the release read. “As a share of Early Voters, African Americans are down 6.0%.” The statement also cheered the rise in white voters as compared with 2012. “The once dynamic Obama Coalition [is] crumbling and tired,” said Robin Hayes, the North Carolina GOP chairman, adding that the party’s “motivated statewide volunteers and extensive ground game” are the reason for the good news. > **[The North Carolina GOP just bragged about how few black people were able to...](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/11/north-carolina-gop-brags-about-how-few-black-people-were-able-vote-early/)** > > Subtle, guys. Superdelegates do not rise to the same level because parties are allowed by law to decide how they select candidates. Voting in elections is a right, established by law. So please answer my question: when, if ever, do blacks who are having their voting suppressed have justification to use violence? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/49 "2017-06-16T20:37:32Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > It’s not a game, it is active suppression of voting in elections by the GOP of black voters. The GOP acknowledges it. > [North Carolina GOP Brags About How Few Black People Were Able to Vote Early – Mother Jones](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/11/north-carolina-gop-brags-about-how-few-black-people-were-able-vote-early/) > > Superdelegates do not rise to the same level because parties are allowed by law to decide how they select candidates. Voting in elections is a right, established by law. > > So please answer my question: when, if ever, do blacks who are having their voting suppressed have justification to use violence? Mother Jones, the Hannity of the left. Those voters who didnt vote early were perfectly free to vote on election day. This article mentions no effort to suppress voters; just a lack of enthusiasm in said voters. [http://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2016/10/clinton-campaign-struggles-in-getting-african-americans-to-early-voting-polls-106931](http://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2016/10/clinton-campaign-struggles-in-getting-african-americans-to-early-voting-polls-106931) ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/50 "2017-06-16T20:42:48Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Mother Jones, the Hannity of the left. Those voters who didnt vote early were perfectly free to vote on election day. This article mentions no effort to suppress voters; just a lack of enthusiasm in said voters. > > [http://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2016/10/clinton-campaign-struggles-in-getting-african-americans-to-early-voting-polls-106931](http://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2016/10/clinton-campaign-struggles-in-getting-african-americans-to-early-voting-polls-106931) So you won’t answer the question? Hypothetically then: if black people are having their access to the ballot box suppressed by the state, do they have reason to resort to violence? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/51 "2017-06-16T20:43:47Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So you won’t answer the question? Hypothetically then: if black people are having their access to the ballot box suppressed by the state, do they have reason to resort to violence? But they didnt. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/52 "2017-06-16T20:48:36Z")
Sure they didn’t. Keep telling yourself that and wonder why the blacks are getting so uppity. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/53 "2017-06-16T20:48:59Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > A year ago, Senator Rand Paul [tweeted](https://twitter.com/RandPaul/status/746022114042478592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mediaite.com%2Fonline%2Fa-year-ago-rand-paul-tweeted-that-2nd-amendment-exists-to-shoot-at-the-government%2F) “Why do we have a Second Amendment? It’s not to shoot deer. It’s to shoot at the government when it becomes tyrannical!” > > Yesterday, someone listened to that advice and [shot 3 GOP Congressmen](http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/politics/alexandria-virginia-shooting/index.html) at a baseball game. The man was outspokenly liberal and recently said "“Trump is a Traitor. Trump Has Destroyed Our Democracy. It’s Time to Destroy Trump & Co.” > > As a country founded on a violent insurrection, kept together through another, and responsible for indirectly inspiring and directly causing several more violent insurrections in other countries, the idea of political violence is an inescapable part of our history, and perhaps an inescapable if shameful part of our ethos. > > _That_ it happens is not really a debate. But _should_ it? Is political violence to be condemned forever, under all circumstances? Or should be it a last resort, when all peaceful measures have failed? Is it a civic duty, an act of treason, simple terrorism, none of the above? Does an armed populace mean that any nut can declare himself a freedom fighter? Sure; but that includes facing the consequences of one’s daring stand. What you’re overlooking is the judgment of the rest of society. Democracy as originally envisioned by the Founders was to be a consensus of the armed: If a rebellion broke out, the government would only have the power to suppress it to whatever extent the populace would be willing to be mustered to arms to put the rebellion down. Remember that the Constitution forbids states from having standing professional armies; mustering a posse or militia of armed citizens was the State’s only recourse if a sheriff or constable was faced with something he couldn’t handle. Under that system, a lone nut gets shot down like the mad dog he is. A band of self-styled “freedom fighters” gets arrested and/or killed by civil law enforcement or the part-time volunteer National Guard. In the case of the Civil War, enough northerners either volunteered or acquiesced to serving in the Union army to suppress southern secession. What most people today don’t understand is that the idea of segregating society into the armed servants of the government and the disarmed citizenry is exactly what the founders of the United States were rebelling against. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/54 "2017-06-16T20:50:18Z")
> **[Entertainment - MarketWatch](https://www.marketwatch.com/entertainment?reflink=heatst)** > > Entertainment and media news coverage from MarketWatch. These Philly Rep voters have no more right to be violent than Dem voters. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/55 "2017-06-16T20:59:10Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > [Entertainment and Media - MarketWatch](https://heatst.com/politics/philadelphia-republicans-claim-voter-intimidation-voter-fraud/) > > These Philly Rep voters have no more right to be violent than Dem voters. Especially since it is not at all the same thing as voter suppression. Personally, I think that it’s not a matter of when is political violence is appropriate, it’s a matter of when have the political mechanisms made it inevitable? The continued systematic voter suppression of black and minority enclaves is making that political violence more and more likely. That’s a disastrous outcome for the nation, but I think very likely. When it happens, it will be very hard if not impossible to come back from it. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/56 "2017-06-16T21:01:15Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > A year ago, Senator Rand Paul [tweeted](https://twitter.com/RandPaul/status/746022114042478592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mediaite.com%2Fonline%2Fa-year-ago-rand-paul-tweeted-that-2nd-amendment-exists-to-shoot-at-the-government%2F) “Why do we have a Second Amendment? It’s not to shoot deer. It’s to shoot at the government when it becomes tyrannical!” > > Yesterday, someone listened to that advice and [shot 3 GOP Congressmen](http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/14/politics/alexandria-virginia-shooting/index.html) at a baseball game. The man was outspokenly liberal and recently said "“Trump is a Traitor. Trump Has Destroyed Our Democracy. It’s Time to Destroy Trump & Co.” > > As a country founded on a violent insurrection, kept together through another, and responsible for indirectly inspiring and directly causing several more violent insurrections in other countries, the idea of political violence is an inescapable part of our history, and perhaps an inescapable if shameful part of our ethos. > > _That_ it happens is not really a debate. But _should_ it? Is political violence to be condemned forever, under all circumstances? Or should be it a last resort, when all peaceful measures have failed? Is it a civic duty, an act of treason, simple terrorism, none of the above? As long as we have a functioning democracy, violence is NEVER justified. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/57 "2017-06-16T21:06:18Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Especially since it is not at all the same thing as voter suppression. > > Personally, I think that it’s not a matter of when is political violence is appropriate, it’s a matter of when have the political mechanisms made it inevitable? The continued systematic voter suppression of black and minority enclaves is making that political violence more and more likely. That’s a disastrous outcome for the nation, but I think very likely. When it happens, it will be very hard if not impossible to come back from it. You seem to be unaware of places like Chicago were voter fraud gas been endemic for decades. And, no, Chicagoans shouldn’t resort to violence. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/58 "2017-06-16T21:07:10Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > As long as we have a functioning democracy, violence is NEVER justified. And that’s the problem with the lone gunmen type of thing that we saw a few days ago. Some feel that if a democracy is not working _for them_, then violence is justified. As long as I get to go vote (and I have reasonable expectation that it is counted), and I get to make sure that my voice is heard by any who wish to hear me, then I may not like the results of a particular election, but I have a non-violent recourse to try to change the govt in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2017, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/59 "2017-06-16T21:34:34Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So you won’t answer the question? Hypothetically then: if black people are having their access to the ballot box suppressed by the state, do they have reason to resort to violence? Well if it was a question of blatantly refusing to let people vote or throwing their ballets in the trash, there was the [Battle of Athens.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens_(1946)) ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038/60 "2017-06-17T01:22:06Z")
Political violence is appropriate whenever other types of violence are appropriate. That is in self-defense and in proportion to the violence initiated by the aggressor. That doesn’t mean it is a good idea. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-political-violence-appropriate-when-is-it-necessary/789038.md?page=4)