# When Is Rebellion/Revolution Justified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941 "2011-07-13T23:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/21 "2011-07-14T03:00:23Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > The passage you for some reason referenced tells us to obey the men in question _ **period.** _ If you wish to swap out that passage for one that actually makes the point you’re now on about, then, by all means, cite a better one instead. Acts 5:29: > [@](#): > > Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! > [@Miller](#): > > So, the only time revolution is justified is when the rulers are acting in ways that the Bible doesn’t approve? Isn’t this an argument in favor of a Christian theocracy? No, not theocracy. I said when the government does evil things like as stated in the OP murder people. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/22 "2011-07-14T03:07:51Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I said when the government does evil things like as stated in the OP murder people. Shouldn’t we be forgiving all such trespasses while vigorously turning the other cheek? Judging not, lest we be judged? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/23 "2011-07-14T03:11:23Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > No, not theocracy. I said when the government does evil things like as stated in the OP murder people. I don’t see anything in the passage you quoted that gives an exemption for rebellions against “evil” governments. Quite the contrary, it seems to be arguing that anything a government does must, by definition, be good, because governments are anointed by God. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/24 "2011-07-14T03:17:19Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > It offers guidance for personal morality and its general principles and spirit can be enshrined into law although it would be futility to encode Christian morality completely into law. Paul’s Letter to the Romans, as a complete treatise, does in fact offer such advice. But when you quote individual verses out of the context in which he wrote them, why,then, > [@Paul of Tarsus](#): > > Do you, my friend, pass judgment on others? You have no excuse at all, whoever you are. For when you judge others and then do the same things which they do, you condemn yourself.2 We know that God is right when he judges the people who do such things as these.3 But you, my friend, do those very things for which you pass judgment on others! Do you think you will escape God’s judgment?4 Or perhaps you despise his great kindness, tolerance, and patience. Surely you know that God is kind, because he is trying to lead you to repent.5 But you have a hard and stubborn heart, and so you are making your own punishment even greater on the Day when God’s anger and righteous judgments will be revealed.6 For God will reward each of us according to what we have done. (Romans 2:1-6, GNB) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/25 "2011-07-14T04:00:37Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > There are certain cases where we must obey God rather than men. Not to mention there is biblical precedent (ie Moses). So are you saying there are times we must obey God rather than do what the Bible tells us? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/26 "2011-07-14T04:12:18Z")
**When Is Rebellion/Revolution Justified**?: When the other side’s got a Death Star. Seriously, **Qin Shi Huangdi** , I dont know how or why you do it, but you either leave a a starting cryptic OP to which you never come back or (and even on interesting subjects) you poison the well right away and derail your very own question in the very same sentence that it is asked. What in your right mind could lead you to back your question with a quote from the Bible, as if it was an authority source on either Rebellion or Revolution. The Bible has a very good answer for Rebellion, it’s called Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/27 "2011-07-14T04:15:19Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > There are certain cases where we must obey God rather than men. Even if he actually existed, he doesn’t say anything. And if he actually started talking, I see no reason that I owe him obedience. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/28 "2011-07-14T04:32:58Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Even if he actually existed, he doesn’t say anything. And if he actually started talking, I see no reason that I owe him obedience. You’re just not following the logic. See he does exist, and he told you to be obedient to men. But **Qin** says not to do that. Be obedient to him. It’s quite simple if you don’t think about it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/29 "2011-07-14T04:33:53Z")
> [@Romans 13:3](#): > > For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Sometimes even God can be an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/30 "2011-07-14T04:38:39Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > When is a rebellion or a revolution against a government justified. From what I can gather of Romans 13:1-7, I believe rebellion/revolution is only justified in order to protect human lives and then only because there is no other way to protect human lives other than by getting rid of the existing government-as in the Nazi regime in Germany with regard to the Holocaust or Stalin’s regime in the USSR with regard to the massacre of the Kulaks. Did you mean for the question in your title to be “When is a rebellion or a revolution against a government justified _according to the Bible_?” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/31 "2011-07-14T05:56:24Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > **When Is Rebellion/Revolution Justified?** [When some rich arrogant capitalist pig **steals your bike!**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pee-wee%27s_Big_Adventure) :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/32 "2011-07-14T07:36:53Z")
I have no issue with Qin citing the Bible as his authority. But I’m still trying to understand how he can cite the Bible as his authority to do the opposite of what the Bible says. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/33 "2011-07-14T07:40:02Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > It offers guidance for personal morality and its general principles and spirit can be enshrined into law although it would be futility to encode Christian morality completely into law. Or even partly encode christian morality into law. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/34 "2011-07-14T07:41:32Z")
Rebellion against the government is \*always \*justified. Because they’re the government, and we shouldn’t have those (as separate entities, anyway.) Not that you can get away with it most of the time, but that’s got squat to do with moral justification, which is what the OP seemed to be asking. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/35 "2011-07-14T07:54:33Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I have no issue with Qin citing the Bible as his authority. But I’m still trying to understand how he can cite the Bible as his authority to do the opposite of what the Bible says. if all else fails, why not just say that the alleged “government” is really an evil criminal gang whereas your own gang is in fact that very “magistrate” carrying the sword to protect the people from the depredations of the former, as per the cite? That’s what [these guys](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Gaozu_of_Han#Insurrection_against_the_Qin_Dynasty) did. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/36 "2011-07-14T14:08:25Z")
Actually, the morality called for by Jesus the Christ from His followers is not a terribly bad thing to found a political system on: Judge as you yourself would prefer to be judged; give sacrificially to your family and generously to others, being merciful and compassionate, especially to those in need and those with no or inadequate resources; etc. The problem lies in those who think they themselves are entitled to judge others in His stead while excusing away their own faults, and who have “logical” reasons for holding others up to those standards. They fail to observe the clear warning of their Lord according to their own Scriptures, and are justly held to scorn as hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/37 "2011-07-14T14:12:57Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The problem lies in those who think they themselves are entitled to judge others in His stead while excusing away their own faults, and who have “logical” reasons for holding others up to those standards. They fail to observe the clear warning of their Lord according to their own Scriptures, and are justly held to scorn as hypocrites. Hey, that first stone’s not going to cast itself. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/38 "2011-07-14T14:29:29Z")
Sounds a lot like the reasoning for killing abortion doctors, doesn’t it? It’s okay to kill, if they are breaking God’s laws, to protect life. Sigh, I smell yet another thinly disguised anti abortion justification. Badly framed of course. Unfortunately the verse quoted clearly says, ‘The authorities that exist have been established by God.’ Sounds to me like our authorities, which exist, and hence have been established by God, and support ‘choice’, (via our democratic process), should be obeyed, not questioned. How about it? Are you willing to follow your own bible and do as this verse describes, obey the authorities, and their laws which support choice for all? Or are you not going to do as your bible dictates, in this specific passage, instead picking and choosing which verses to follow because they fit your personal political agenda? Doesn’t that kind of make you a cafeteria Christian, ignoring this verse, but standing by that one? Do you even understand, how doing so, is the reason why many people think devout Christians are weak minded? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/39 "2011-07-14T15:08:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I have no issue with Qin citing the Bible as his authority. But I’m still trying to understand how he can cite the Bible as his authority to do the opposite of what the Bible says. What, like that’s a new thing under the sun?! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/40 "2011-07-14T15:09:30Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Actually, the morality called for by Jesus the Christ from His followers is not a terribly bad thing to found a political system on: Judge as you yourself would prefer to be judged; give sacrificially to your family and generously to others, being merciful and compassionate, especially to those in need and those with no or inadequate resources; etc. No, that’s a good foundation for **social relations.** A political system is a very different thing. It needs to be “designed” on the assumption that many people will **not** act like that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941.md?page=3)