# When Is Rebellion/Revolution Justified? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941 "2011-07-13T23:14:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/81 "2011-07-17T20:33:05Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > My theory is ends-oriented, and so I reject the concept that you can determine whether or not a revolution is justified before you try it. “Ends-oriented,” yes. But how do you determine whether your revolutionary **ends** are just? Once again: **"First be sure you’re right,** then go ahead." ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/82 "2011-07-17T21:19:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Such is **not** the case in the Libyan Civil War. The rebels could not win without NATO . . . but neither could NATO winkle out Gaddafi without the rebels. Nor would NATO even **care to try** if there were no native rebellion. What NATO could or would do is irrelevant to the issue of Libyan rebellion. If the rebels could not win without foreign interference, then, according to my theory, their rebellion is unjustified. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “Ends-oriented,” yes. But how do you determine whether your revolutionary **ends** are just? You don’t. Without action, a thought/concept/dream is neither just nor unjust; it simply _is_. You can no more determine whether a future movement is justified than you can determine whether a fetus will be a decent human being. Only a wait-and-see approach makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/83 "2011-07-17T21:26:09Z")
[QUOTE=Commissar] What NATO could or would do is irrelevant to the issue of Libyan rebellion. If the rebels could not win without foreign interference, then, according to my theory, their rebellion is unjustified. [/QUOTE] Could you point to some rebellions/revolutions that were justified in by your definition then? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/84 "2011-07-17T22:04:20Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Could you point to some rebellions/revolutions that were justified in by your definition then? > > -XT Sure, since they are a dime a dozen. Even if we limit ourselves to the past couple months, the Egyptian and Tunisian uprisings were both perfect examples of justified revolutions. In both cases, the overthrow was accomplished by domestic popular will, rather than by Western bombs. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/85 "2011-07-18T00:45:50Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > My opinion on the subject is that rebellions/revolutions are always justified when they adequately reflect the true will of the people. This, in turn, is best analyzed by looking at the outcome of the movement since, in most situations, we can expect only those revolutions that reflect the popular will to succeed. Hence, all revolutions that succeed are justified; all revolutions that fail are unjustified. This is a vast oversimplification, to be sure, but in my experience it tends to work pretty well in describing reality, and I have yet to encounter a better and more accurate theory. Then I suppose the Nazi revolution was perfectly justified then. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/86 "2011-07-18T01:38:43Z")
I didn’t think **Commisar** was still posting here. Huh. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/87 "2011-07-18T01:48:09Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Sure, since they are a dime a dozen. Even if we limit ourselves to the past couple months, the Egyptian and Tunisian uprisings were both perfect examples of justified revolutions. In both cases, the overthrow was accomplished by domestic popular will, rather than by Western bombs. Once you’ve started a revolution, you do not make it any less of a revolution by accepting foreign help. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/88 "2011-07-18T13:58:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Once you’ve started a revolution, you do not make it any less of a revolution by accepting foreign help. Clearly we’d have to rule out the American Revolution otherwise, considering the sterling efforts of the [Marquis de La Fayette](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbert_du_Motier,_marquis_de_Lafayette) ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/89 "2011-07-18T16:35:40Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Then I suppose the Nazi revolution was perfectly justified then. A revolution, by its definition, is an uprising by those not in power against those in power. A shifting of power between political parties, even when employing violent means, is not a revolution. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Once you’ve started a revolution, you do not make it any less of a revolution by accepting foreign help. Perhaps not, but that’s neither here nor there. After all, we’re not discussing the definition of “revolution;” our discussion is limited to what makes a revolution justified. The current Libyan uprising is certainly a revolution, at least in the small part that is actually being carried out by Libyans. However, this revolution is not justified, for it fails the popular will test. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/90 "2011-07-18T16:56:27Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Perhaps not, but that’s neither here nor there. After all, we’re not discussing the definition of “revolution;” our discussion is limited to what makes a revolution justified. The current Libyan uprising is certainly a revolution, at least in the small part that is actually being carried out by Libyans. However, this revolution is not justified, for it fails the popular will test. How do you know it fails the popular will test? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/91 "2011-07-18T16:59:00Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I was under the impression that the topic of this thread was “When is Rebellion/Revolution Justified?” You seem to believe that it is actually “Which Revolutions Made Their People Happiest?” > > I encourage you to go back and re-read the subject line. I encourage you togo back and re read your own posts. i.e Any revolution that succeeds is justified because it reflects the will of the people, your words… The revolutions that I cited WERE successful. So whats your next debating tactic going to be ? Shout out LOOK OVER THERE ! And then run out of the room ? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/92 "2011-07-18T20:13:08Z")
What? WHERE? Where is everybody? What the hell just happened? ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/93 "2011-07-19T02:00:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How do you know it fails the popular will test? I derive that conclusion from your admission that, and I quote, “The rebels could not win without NATO…” If a revolution can not succeed on its own merits then, I maintain, it de facto does not reflect the popular will. > [@Lust4Life](#): > > I encourage you togo back and re read your own posts. > > i.e Any revolution that succeeds is justified because it reflects the will of the people, your words… > > The revolutions that I cited WERE successful. And hence, under my theory, our analysis ends at that final step: success. As soon as a revolution succeeds, it is justifiable, regardless of what happens afterward. What if the people ultimately decide that, all things being equal, the revolution was a bad idea? Answer: it was still justifiable. What if the nation, being in the habit of calculating Gross Domestic Happiness, finds out that the post-revolution years result in a decrease in GDH in comparison to pre-revolutionary years? Answer: it was still justifiable. What if, having been driven mad by the bloody turmoil that brought them to power, the revolutionary leaders, on the very next day after seizing power, detonate the nation’s entire nuclear arsenal, turning the nation and everyone within it into a vast sea of glass? Answer: it was still justifiable. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/94 "2011-07-19T03:17:44Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I derive that conclusion from your admission that, and I quote, “The rebels could not win without NATO…” > > If a revolution can not succeed on its own merits then, I maintain, it de facto does not reflect the popular will. So you would agree that the various communist revolutions that achieved success with assistance from the Soviet Union or other established communist states did not reflect the popular will? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941/95 "2011-07-19T04:01:46Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I derive that conclusion from your admission that, and I quote, “The rebels could not win without NATO…” > > If a revolution can not succeed on its own merits then, I maintain, it de facto does not reflect the popular will. False. Countless genuine popular revolutions have been crushed by well-organized, well-armed governments. It’s the force multipliers that make all the difference, everywhere **but** the voting booth. (And even there money can be a force-multiplier, but let’s not compare herpes to AIDS.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-rebellion-revolution-justified/588941.md?page=4)