# When is sexism okay? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037 "2009-03-19T16:27:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/1 "2009-03-19T16:27:11Z")
First thread: [Red wine stains](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508649) Second thread: [Wow, our new hire is my dream guy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510905) It seems the answer to the question is, “If she was asking for it. Even if she wasn’t actually asking for it, but only mentioned having female body parts, in public. That gives carte blanche for creepy objectifying comments in any and all threads she participates in, forever. Also, if she asks people to knock it off, that’s just adding fuel to the fire, so she should shut up and let it roll off, just like she does every day on the street, on buses, and out with friends. Hal Briston was cool about the running sheep joke! What’s the big deal?” This should go without saying, but it clearly doesn’t here, so I would like to lay out the problems with what has been going on here. Sexism is never okay. Fullstop. It is pervasive and hard to avoid, and we all make mistakes (women can have internalized sexism too), but the correct response to someone pointing out that you are being sexist is to apologise and make an effort not to do it again. It is not any of the following: “You should have expected it, therefore you can’t get upset about it”, “Next time don’t post something that sexist people will pick up on”, “What’s the big deal? [Other person] dealt with [completely different, non-sexist comments] just fine!” or any other comment that shows you think sexism is ever okay. It is not. From the ‘dream guy’ thread: > [@Wow, our new hire is my dream guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-our-new-hire-is-my-dream-guy/490010/16): > > The White Shirt Thread has all the markers of something that is likely to follow you around for a long time. Could be worse, you know. I guess my question is, what action of mine results in me not having creepy sexist comments directed at me in unrelated threads until the end of time? “None” should not be an answer. “There’s nothing you can do about it, so be quiet, or you’ll only make it worse” is unacceptable. This is creepy, it is offensive, and there is no defense for it. I’m seriously thinking of leaving the board if nothing happens to change my impression that some Dopers are unwilling to stop their sexist behaviour. And Doper men, if you think this is an appropriate way to act, and are about to turn around and post a long-winded OP wondering why you can’t get a date/girlfriend? THIS IS WHY. (ps lol your name sounds like a porn star!) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/2 "2009-03-19T16:37:32Z")
1. If it bothers you, I hope everybody takes your request to heart and stops bringing it up. On the other hand, unless **dbaF** has done this repeatedly (and so far, he’s just done it once, AFAICT) you might be overreacting a little. 2. Genuine question: how would you react if I casually mentioned that X pair of jeans made my butt look good? 3. I thought your name came from the pron star too. I stand corrected. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/3 "2009-03-19T16:40:14Z")
I like the occasional dirty joke myself. Just like anyone else. I generally try not to be too stupid about it. However, you can always say something subtle like “That’s stupid, shut the hell up”. You CAN tell people to STFU. Some people are pretty clueless about what the limits are, and there’s nothing wrong with letting them know. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/4 "2009-03-19T16:44:54Z")
You do realize you are out of your mind, right? Here are the relevant parts of the discussion: > [@Tracy Lord](#): > > The one that is the only shirt that goes with my great purple skirt, the one that I can wear to work and to the theatre, the one that fits perfectly and has excellent darts that makes my **waist look tiny and my boobs look amazing**. > [@WormTheRed](#): > > (and I’m gonna have to request a pic, just so I can be certain that your boobs are amazing in that shirt ) > [@Koxinga](#): > > Also, color me skeptical on the boobs looking amazing part. This being the SDMB, I’m afraid I must demand a cite: pics are in order, naturally. > [@Tracy Lord](#): > > WormTheRed and Koxinga, I would appreciate it if you would not say things like that to me again (read post 70 on of this thread if you’re confused). You make a point of specifically calling attention to your boobs and how “amazing” they are. Any sane person would construe that as being flirtatious. So naturally a couple posters then make a few good natured references to wanting to see them, but now all of a sudden you are all offended by their comments? I mean did it not occur to you that mentioning your boobs on a message board is pretty much a guarantee to receive a comment to show them? If I didn’t know better, I would assume you were intentionally baiting people into an argument. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/5 "2009-03-19T16:45:13Z")
Lighten up, sweet cheeks. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/6 "2009-03-19T16:49:10Z")
Oh and WRT the other thread. If you don’t want people to comment on your sexuality, maybe you should stop posting threads about how you want to bang that hot new coworker? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/7 "2009-03-19T16:51:15Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You do realize you are out of your mind, right? > Here are the relevant parts of the discussion: > > You make a point of specifically calling attention to your boobs and how “amazing” they are. Any sane person would construe that as being flirtatious. So naturally a couple posters then make a few good natured references to wanting to see them, but now all of a sudden you are all offended by their comments? I mean did it not occur to you that mentioning your boobs on a message board is pretty much a guarantee to receive a comment to show them? > > If I didn’t know better, I would assume you were intentionally baiting people into an argument. I would view those posts as simply being jokes. Nothing more. Some people on The Dope will make silly flirtatious comments sometimes, and they don’t mean a thing. If it bothers the OP, she can say so. End of story. I think people will back off, given the chance. However, if the OP says things that “have to” fuel more jokes, then I will start to wonder where the “fault” really is. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/8 "2009-03-19T16:52:14Z")
A person who dresses – at least on some occasions – to enhance the amazingness of her boobs isn’t allowed to take offense at those who then notice those boobs. ---
**Author:** ![Taipan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Taipan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taipan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/9 "2009-03-19T16:58:26Z")
Yeah I don’t think this is really an issue here… we are dealing with a thing called the “internet”. People try to be funny, which can sometimes come off as being sexist. You talk about your boobs, they talk about your boobs and suddenly they’ve crossed some line into the lecherous creepy zone? There’s a million miles of inter-tubes between you and them, they aren’t going to hurt you. You are perfectly correct to ask them to stop. After that you should drop it, otherwise it might seem like you are dragging it out for the attention or something. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/10 "2009-03-19T16:58:34Z")
Sexism. You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. How do you define it? As you read the boards with references ranging from ladles to sheep, do you find yourself in a constant state of despair? Calling innocuous comments and past thread references creepy is … well, spooky. As in postal-worker-never-know-what-is-going-to-set-them-off spooky. As part of a community, remembering and responding to past threads is kind of expected – it means your posts are read and remembered. That’s creepy? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/11 "2009-03-19T17:00:06Z")
I think you are overreacting to the second thread. If I had a friend with whom I’d had the “I love this shirt it makes my boobs look great” conversation and then a few days later she brought up how her dream guy started at work, I’d certainly make a “and wear your boob shirt!” comment by the time we are finished talking. I really think the problem here is not one of sexism, but of social registers. For some people, when you brought your boobs up _at all_, it signaled that the conversation was in the “very close friend” social register–a place where it’s ok to say very risque thing. I have a male co-worker that I can say very raunchy things to/can say raunchy things to me because we are really close friends (though we aren’t really flirtatious). If anyone else said some of the things to me that we say to each other, I’d file a complaint. You want this to be over, and I agree. But I think the problem lies in conflicting ideas of appropriate familiarity, not sexism, and if you say, basically "I was right and you were totally sexist pigs, and I want you all to _admit that you are sexist_ and then drop it, this thing will blow up into a forest fire because the people involved with have to defend themselves against an accusation that isn’t true and which can’t be let go–you can’t just walk away and agree to disagree on an accusation like this. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/12 "2009-03-19T17:02:43Z")
You’re a primadonna twit. If you go into Great Debates and talk about the stimulus package if someone mentions your great boobs then you have an argument. If in the course of a thread ABOUT your boobs then STFU. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/13 "2009-03-19T17:04:53Z")
Oh yeah, and it’s not sexist at all to bring that back up. Grow a spine or leave the boards, who cares either way? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/14 "2009-03-19T17:05:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > If in the course of a thread ABOUT your boobs then STFU. Strictly speaking, the thread was about her shirt, not her boobs. ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/15 "2009-03-19T17:06:47Z")
I don’t care if anyone admits anything. I want it to stop. I was ignoring it, and I thought it had gone away, until **dba Fred** brought it up randomly and **Rhythmdvl** jumped on it. This disproves the “ignore it and it will go away” hypothesis. Then these were posted: > [@Wow, our new hire is my dream guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-our-new-hire-is-my-dream-guy/490010/16): > > You can at this point either ignore it entirely, in which case it will likely go away, or you can keep responding in this way. In which case it has some potential to reach, er, skaldic proportions. > [@Wow, our new hire is my dream guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/wow-our-new-hire-is-my-dream-guy/490010/21): > > Part of it is that you react predictably and negatively when poked by it, and there are people who can’t resist that kind of temptation (this is far more likely to be the real reason why people do it than sexism–it’s got nothing to do the fact it’s boobs and everything to do with your reaction (see also “buckeyes”)). which disprove the “tell people to stop and they’ll stop” hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/16 "2009-03-19T17:09:12Z")
[Nigel Tufnel] What’s wrong with being sexist? [/Nigel] ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/17 "2009-03-19T17:10:23Z")
> [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > Sexism is never okay. Fullstop. It is pervasive and hard to avoid, and we all make mistakes (women can have internalized sexism too), but the correct response to someone pointing out that you are being sexist is to apologise and make an effort not to do it again. It is not any of the following: “You should have expected it, therefore you can’t get upset about it”, “Next time don’t post something that sexist people will pick up on”, “What’s the big deal? [Other person] dealt with [completely different, non-sexist comments] just fine!” or any other comment that shows you think sexism is ever okay. It is not. WRT the first thread: When, in a social situation, you sexualize the conversation youself, then IMO you are not entitled to accuse those who follow your lead of “sexism.” If you don’t want people to comment on your boobs, don’t introduce them into a conversation. But ISTM that having drawn attention to them yourself (and their amazing appearance), you are in a poor position to claim that those who teasingly ask for proof of their amazingness are sexist. IMO this is exactly the kind of “Gotcha!” behavior that men rightfully are confused by and object to. WRT the second thread: Based on the use of smilies and the tone of his posts, it seems clear the guy meant no harm. But if you found his comments over the line, you could have just said, “I wish I’d never mentioned my breasts in that thread in the first place, because now here you are linking to the thread again and I don’t like it. Please don’t do this again.” Problem solved. No need for accusations of sexism, no need for hard feelings. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/18 "2009-03-19T17:11:01Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > A person who dresses – at least on some occasions – to enhance the amazingness of her boobs isn’t allowed to take offense at those who then notice those boobs. Yeah, seriously: don’t become _that girl_. I hate girls that are like that- they intentionally dress in a manner that would clearly be construed by any person with eyes as attention grabbing, but then complain when DIRTYPREVYMENOMG have the AUDACITY to look at them. I wear tight, low cut shirts that accentuate my big ol’ rack all the time because _I_ like how I look when I’m dressed like that. I’m most comfortable. And even though I’m not dressing like that to get male attention, I certainly am aware of what I’m wearing and would never be so silly as to get angry or cry sexism when a guy leers at my boobs. I put them out there, for Christ’s sake. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/19 "2009-03-19T17:13:22Z")
> [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > I don’t care if anyone admits anything. I want it to stop. I was ignoring it, and I thought it had gone away, until **dba Fred** brought it up randomly and **Rhythmdvl** jumped on it. This disproves the “ignore it and it will go away” hypothesis. > > Then these were posted: > > which disprove the “tell people to stop and they’ll stop” hypothesis. Just by stating “you are being sexist, now stop”, you force people to defend themselves. If someone at work came in and told you, in front of everyone “you are being racist, now stop!” could you just let it go? Again, if you knew that your BEST FRIEND thought her boobs looked great in a given shirt, if you’d had conversations with her about how awesome her boobs looked in that shirt, and she was talking about a hot new guy in the office and how much she wanted to catch his eye, would it really seem odd to say “wear the shirt that makes your boobs look good”? When my sister went on a cruise and was packing, I said “take that pair of underwear that make your husband go wild”. Was that sexist? And \*\*Rhythmdvl \*\*was just fixing the link. The “spilled red wine” thing was just a cutesy reason why the link was bad. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/20 "2009-03-19T17:13:24Z")
> [@Tracy\_Lord](#): > > I don’t care if anyone admits anything. I want it to stop. I was ignoring it, and I thought it had gone away, until **dba Fred** brought it up randomly and **Rhythmdvl** jumped on it. This disproves the “ignore it and it will go away” hypothesis. Where did you ignore it? Are there other threads in which your offhand comment has been dogging you, leading to harrassment? Because so far we’ve got two threads, and you ignored it in neither. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037.md?page=2)