# When is sexism okay? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037 "2009-03-19T16:27:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/181 "2009-03-20T14:54:47Z")
I think this is a storm in a D-cup. :o ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/182 "2009-03-20T14:54:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The original thread was only three weeks ago, so it’s not exactly ancient history. > > It’s academic at this point, but yes, **Tracy Lord** could have rolled with the punches some more. She got hostile with people who, at least the first time around, were kidding and not doing anything unusual for this board. On the other hand, I can’t blame her for being annoyed with the idea that because **Hal Briston’s** cool with the sheep jokes, she should be cool with boob comments following her around. The connection between Hal and sheep is purely based on humor–with maybe a pinch of stupidity. So Hal can and does laugh it off. **Tracy’s** boobs are a part of her, and sometimes she wants to play them up, and sometimes she wants to ignore them. Add in a touch of youth and and a sort of innocence, and I suspect she’s dealing with boundary issues in real life as well as here. She also is NOT named after the porn star, which many people either don’t know or “forget”. (The ignorant I will forgive, but . . . there’s a part of me that says she shouldn’t have to change her name to be treated with more respect. Sometimes the obvious joke gets a little tired). There’s also a tendency I find disturbing to make “parallel” comments about men’s dangly bits. I can’t say I’ve noticed it a lot in threads other than this one, but the comments about man berries, jockstraps, and men with over-sized endowments bug me on more than one level. Part of it may just be a guy thing. Yes, I feel like Tracy overreacted in starting this thread, but she’s certainly not alone in finding the behavior she’s complaining about obnoxious. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/183 "2009-03-20T14:57:08Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > This is exactly what I continue to fail to understand–it’s basically one (or maybe two, now that I see mentions of **Koxinga** doing it in the signals thread) guy doing this stupid shit and a few different folks who will throw on an add-on zinger once she reacts to guy one. I don’t think **Koxinga** really counts, anyway; he brought it up as an example of a mixed/misunderstood signal, which was perfectly appropriate. He didn’t make any booby jokes or even mention **TL** by name. So, this whole thing is **dba Fred’s** fault. I suppose you could say that it’s symptomatic of some deeper fundamental issue, but nobody else appears to be _offended_ by the boobie-cite stuff. They just don’t think it’s funny (which I happen to agree with). ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/184 "2009-03-20T14:58:21Z")
shenanigans. there are no girls on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/185 "2009-03-20T15:23:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So, this whole thing is **dba Fred’s** fault. I suppose you could say that it’s symptomatic of some deeper fundamental issue, but nobody else appears to be _offended_ by the boobie-cite stuff. They just don’t think it’s funny (which I happen to agree with). Funny? No. I’ll cop to using it very occasionally, when apparently appropriately signaled, as a substitute for the equally weak but less potentially offensive “How _you_ doin’?”, but that’s mostly in real life with people I know. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/186 "2009-03-20T15:24:53Z")
> [@Suse](#): > > I’d like to think that grown men can handle a woman mentioning her breasts in a non-sexual manner without reverting back to their high-school sniggering. “I have a pimple on my boob” is nonsexual." Those “save the boobies” breast-cancer-awareness stickers and t-shirts are nonsexual. I would reckon most men would not perceive “makes my boobs look amazing” as non-sexual. As for her username, it _was_ a perfectly good username until that no-talent ass-clown started making porn, but why should she change it when its the porn star who sucks? And put me with the “someone tell the dreamguy to run not walk” crowd. It’s one think to dip your pen in the company ink - a whole 'nother to stick it in crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/187 "2009-03-20T15:46:27Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > Should we live in a world where women can flaunt their breasts – or, in the online equivalent of that, mention in a thread about stain treatment that hers look particularly amazing in some garments – without anyone reacting? Maybe – probably. But we don’t – _and the way to battle that reaction (whether we want to call that reaction “sexism” or just “immaturity”) isn’t to create the situation and then yell “Gotcha!” when someone takes the bait._ > > I’m not saying that she did that consciously or deliberately, but it’s looking to a lot of us that that’s what she did, and that’s the dynamic we’re trying to point out. Well, I think it’s unfair to suggest that she was consciously trying to lay a trap when she made a casual remark about her breasts. Like I said, I hear women make such remarks IRL all the time (“I bought a really cute new top, it makes my breasts look great!”), and IRL I’ve never known this to lead to a bunch of boobie jokes or anything. Although, as I said in the original red wine stain thread, I don’t think I’ve ever heard such a comment in mixed company. But if it’s only women present then at most someone would say something like “Oh, where did you get it?” Where **Tracy** first went wrong was in expecting the SDMB to react to such a comment the way her friends would. What a fool she was to trust us. > [@Really Not All That Bright](#): > > I suppose you could say that it’s symptomatic of some deeper fundamental issue, but nobody else appears to be offended by the boobie-cite stuff. They just don’t think it’s funny (which I happen to agree with). I find such “jokes” both offensive and unfunny, for what it’s worth. As **Rubystreak** points out, even a serious question that involves some reference to a woman’s breasts is almost certain to inspire some posters to respond with basically “SHOW US YER TITS!” See [this recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510583), where the OP is simply asking for advice on finding a comfortable bra. Most of the responses are helpful and on-topic, but there are a couple of leering “humorous” posts from men, including an offer to hold the OP’s breasts in place for her! I’d be disappointed but not surprised if a thread called “I found a lump during my breast self exam, what should I do?” were greeting with “Send me a picture of your boobs and I’ll tell you, haw haw!” ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/188 "2009-03-20T16:02:45Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Where **Tracy** first went wrong was in expecting the SDMB to react to such a comment the way her friends would. What a fool she was to trust us. This is probably the crux of the issue–many people’s groups of friends (my own included) and more generally a subset of the MPSIMS flirt culture were responding the way they typically do to such comments, which **Tracy** for whatever reason was not expecting–and again I feel the need to point out that when we’re talking about maybe half a dozen posters reacting “inappropriately”, the problem is not with “the SDMB”. > [@](#): > > I find such “jokes” both offensive and unfunny, for what it’s worth. > > As **Rubystreak** points out, even a serious question that involves some reference to a woman’s breasts is almost certain to inspire some posters to respond with basically “SHOW US YER TITS!” See [this recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510583), where the OP is simply asking for advice on finding a comfortable bra. Most of the responses are helpful and on-topic, but there are a couple of leering “humorous” posts from men, including an offer to hold the OP’s breasts in place for her! I’d be disappointed but not surprised if a thread called “I found a lump during my breast self exam, what should I do?” were greeting with “Send me a picture of your boobs and I’ll tell you, haw haw!” As much as I believe a flirty comment about one’s own breasts should be able to be responded to with such a joke in the absence of actual wit, I agree with you that it’s jerkish to do so in a thread about, say, bra fitting or breast exams. Would you in turn concede that “this shirt makes my breasts look awesome” can appear on first glance to be a flirt and draw flirty (if uninspired) responses without those responses being necessarily sexist? ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/189 "2009-03-20T16:03:44Z")
**Lamia** – I think you and I are basically in agreement, esp. about the annoyingness of guys bursting into a conversation about bras to make boob jokes. And of course, talking about how a particular garment can make a particular body part look great is something a lot of us have done – but in a private conversation. I think it behooves us to remember that a public message board isn’t a private conversation, and that people we don’t know (and who don’t know us) are reading what we write, and that they will do with those words what they will, which may or may not be what we want (or expect) them to do. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/190 "2009-03-20T16:05:33Z")
I think the juvenile lechers are disserved by being lumped in with the sexists … or maybe the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/191 "2009-03-20T16:07:34Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Where **Tracy** first went wrong was in expecting the SDMB to react to such a comment the way her friends would. What a fool she was to trust us. I agree completely. There are several thousand people on this message board. Only a fool would expect them to all react in a completely friendly and asexual way when a woman says her “boobs look _amazing_.” Should people stop talking about her attributes, now that she’s made her wishes known? Of course. Did she bring most of this on herself? Yep. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/192 "2009-03-20T16:07:47Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Like I said, I hear women make such remarks IRL all the time (“I bought a really cute new top, it makes my breasts look great!”), and IRL I’ve never known this to lead to a bunch of boobie jokes or anything. Although, as I said in the original red wine stain thread, I don’t think I’ve ever heard such a comment in mixed company. But if it’s only women present then at most someone would say something like “Oh, where did you get it?” But this Board _is_ mixed company, it’s not just us girls. And I think if you made such a comment IRL about a shirt making your boobs look amazing to guys you thought were friends or acquaintances who tease each other – and Lord knows we tease each other here – you certainly would hear some joking comment to the effect of “so where’s this shirt?” or “when will you wear it next?” AND certainly, if you later said, “I met a guy and I really like him, I’m thinking of trying to get his attention,” one of them might very well say, “Well, then, be sure to wear that shirt!” Do you then climb up on your high horse and try to read them a lecture on sexism? > [@](#): > > Where **Tracy** first went wrong was in expecting the SDMB to react to such a comment the way her friends would. What a fool she was to trust us. Fool, indeed. If her friends are so humorless and sensitive that every teasing remark becomes “sexism” and every encounter with a guy she doesn’t approve of is “creepy,” then she should not expect to find people who agree with her in large numbers _anywhere_ in the real world. And thank God for that, says I. She does not speak for many of the rest of us women, who do either (a) have a sense of humor, and/or (b) recognize when maybe we said something we shouldn’t, such that we’ll have to gently get a guy to back up a bit (“Look, I know I said that, but I shouldn’t have, so let it go, okay?”) without accusing them of sexism and/or creepiness. None of us should _ever_ trust that a group of people we don’t know well will react to a comment in exactly the way we want them to. If that’s what she expected to find, then this honestly is not the place for her and she’s better off moving on. IMO it’s just ridiculous to paint it in terms of us breaking some sort of trust she had in us. > [@](#): > > I find such “jokes” both offensive and unfunny, for what it’s worth. They can indeed be offensive and unfunny, but if they are unintentionally so, the way to deal with them is to ask people to knock it off, not to accuse them of sexism and/or to pretend you didn’t to some extent open the door to such comments by calling people’s attention to your amazing anatomy yourself. > [@](#): > > As **Rubystreak** points out, even a serious question that involves some reference to a woman’s breasts is almost certain to inspire some posters to respond with basically “SHOW US YER TITS!” See [this recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510583), where the OP is simply asking for advice on finding a comfortable bra. Most of the responses are helpful and on-topic, but there are a couple of leering “humorous” posts from men, including an offer to hold the OP’s breasts in place for her! I’d be disappointed but not surprised if a thread called “I found a lump during my breast self exam, what should I do?” were greeting with “Send me a picture of your boobs and I’ll tell you, haw haw!” But now you’re talking about a different subject, IMO. If we want to have a larger discussion about whether or not the men (boys) around her should not be expected to grow the fuck up just a tad, and keep their juvenile humor out of non-humorous, non-flirtatous breast-related threads, I can get behind that a bit more. Myself, I think it’s ridiculous to have that kind of discussion in mixed company, which for all we know includes some actual 16 year old boys, not just grown men acting like 16 year old boys, and expect or demand that you not get a comment or two on BOOBIES! But whatever. The issue in _this_ thread is whether it is reasonable to assign to sexism a few unwanted comments that were prompted by the OP’er herself referencing her amazing-looking breasts. IMO, that’s not reasonable at all. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/193 "2009-03-20T16:11:07Z")
Well, I guess the problem is that on the Internet, you don’t always know who’s out there. Like, if I say something to my friends like that, some may leer, some may just laugh, etc. But if I’m in a crowded bar with a group of people I don’t really know, some male, and I mention something about a shirt making my boobs look good, I’d be surprised if I didn’t get some “Are you sure, I didn’t get a close look,” glances, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/194 "2009-03-20T16:27:57Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > Myself, I think it’s ridiculous to have that kind of discussion in mixed company, which for all we know includes some actual 16 year old boys, not just grown men acting like 16 year old boys, and expect or demand that you not get a comment or two on BOOBIES! Quoting this because something just struck me in conjunction with what I posted earlier. I read the bra-sizing thread Lamia linked, and she’s right – there are two comments of the “har-har boobs” joking variety. Of the 44 comments posted, two are semi-lecherous, fairly obvious jokes. It’s interesting to me that on a very popular general-interest message board, the signal-to-noise ratio in a thread discussing bra fitting approaches 96 percent. In other words, that thread stayed remarkably on-topic. I seriously doubt there are very many general-interest message boards that can achieve that level of discretion. So, you can focus on the 4.5 percent of posts in that thread that came from men making a joke, or you can focus on the 95.5 percent of posts in that thread that stayed completely on-topic. Am I saying this board is the end-all be-all discussion point on the Internet? Of course not. But it’s a nice place to hang out and maybe learn some stuff. Recognize it for what it is, and what it isn’t, and post accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/195 "2009-03-20T16:32:55Z")
This thread fails without pictures. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/196 "2009-03-20T16:37:46Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > This thread fails without pictures. _rolls up newspaper_ BAD Moidalize! No biscuits! Get in your crate! ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/197 "2009-03-20T17:00:45Z")
In the [Women and “signals”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10893580) thread, **Tracy Lord** convienently paraphrased what she had said in the [Red wine stains](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508649) thread, I called her on it by posting the actual words she had used (#36). In a thread about communication confusion, it seemed a perfect example of how people sometimes send signals they don’t think they are sending. Her reply (#37) was “Okay, that’s fair enough.” My comment the next day in the [Red wine stains](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508649) thread (#30) was also about that she had chosen the words she used in describing her very favorite white shirt. In the [Wow, our new hire is my dream guy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510905) thread it was a “Hey, I remember her” and connecting dreamy co-worker + very favorite white shirt = love connection. And in light of her prior conduct, I figured there might be fireworks. She asked me to stop and … I did, it was all over in the space of posts 11 to 15 which included **Rhythmdvl** fixing a link. So I’ve been in 3 (4 counting this one) threads with **TL**. 2 of them were pointing out what she actually posted originally versus her sanitized claims, 1 being silly/button pushing (offering fashion advice?), plus this one. It was only in the “new hire” thread that I was the 1st to bring up her white shirt. That constitiutes Board-Stalking? Anybody see where I yelled “Cite?” or “show them to me?” I might have stirred it up a little but **TL** and others kept it going. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/198 "2009-03-20T17:15:42Z")
> [@Suse](#): > > Where I think that some of the confusion lies is that women don’t always think of their breasts in a sexual way. Sometimes they’re just something that can ruin the fit of clothes or enhance the way a blouse looks, to stay on the topic of clothes. And when **Tracy Lord** posted that, to me it seemed that she was posting in that frame of mind. She was concerned about the blouse and thinking of the breasts as just flesh to be confined in a flattering or non-flattering way, not thinking about them in a sexual manner, and so wasn’t expecting the remarks she got. Nobody says “my breasts look amazing” when they are just talking about their breasts as abstract forms. "My breasts look amazing’ means “I look smoking hot.” ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/199 "2009-03-20T17:17:26Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > And in light of her prior conduct, I figured there might be fireworks. This is the point where you started to be wrong, just so you know. > [@](#): > > She asked me to stop and … I did, it was all over in the space of posts 11 to 15 which included **Rhythmdvl** fixing a link. She’d asked you to stop already, and that didn’t stop you from doing it again in another thread. As much as I’ve argued that **Tracy** is being a bit thin-skinned and applying too broad a brush to the SDMB with regard to sexism, you crossed the “jerk” line in this matter the minute you brought the reference into a new thread when it had been made clear to you said references were not acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/200 "2009-03-20T17:23:05Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > As for her username, it _was_ a perfectly good username until that no-talent ass-clown started making porn, but why should she change it when its the porn star who sucks? She’s had the user name since before 1984? I didn’t think the SDMB had been around for more than 25 years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037.md?page=11)