# When is sexism okay? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037 "2009-03-19T16:27:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/441 "2009-03-23T11:41:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Why is that even a distinction someone would spend time making? If some girl posted “I give awesome blowjobs, but only when the guy isn’t really well endowed” would we really be having this conversation with ardent defenders claiming “She didn’t say she gave awesome blowjobs! Can’t men control themselves, or are they berserk cavemen who justifying their flirting with her just like rapists would!” ? Are you ever going to stop pretending that anyone said that men are berserk cavemen (besides the men themselves, of course) or made any comparison to rapists? Or making bad analogies? Yeah, talking about a shirt is comparable to talking about a blowjob. Riiiiight. More hyperbole to muddy the rhetorical waters. > [@](#): > > A statement about how awesome one’s tits are in a certain dress is still A) a sexual statement B) a statement about the awesomeness of one’s tits, even if it’s bound by situational constraints. As I said earlier, as a woman, I might not be thinking of my boobs sexually, even if I use the word boobs, even if I wear a shirt that makes them look better than they are, because I live with them every day and I don’t think of them that way all the time. Is it possible that Tracy forgot herself and just used a really dumb phrase, not realizing that people would seize on it and make a big deal? Wearing the shirt might be a choice to be more sexually attractive; typing the words on the SDMB was NOT meant to start a sexual dialogue: big difference. > [@](#): > > We both say that there are two likely situations: either she is shockingly clueless, or deliberately trolling. You find it more likely that she’s really quite that clueless. I find it much more likely that she’s the kind of person who enjoys being able to generate controversy and look down on people after she’s caused that conflict, as evinced by her keeping the same user name and instead of getting over the fact that mistakes would be made, using it _for years now_ as bait to then sneer at those cultureless clods who know the most famous porn star in history rather than a fairly obscure movie that’s nearly 70 years old. I’m not familiar with her “years of sneering” at people, but really, why should she change a username she likes just because people mistake it for a porn star? It’s ridiculous to judge her because YOU think she should have changed her username, and to say that she didn’t change it because she consciously decided to use it as a way to trap people. I correct people who call me Ruby instead of Rubystreak, because there’s another poster named Ruby. Am I keeping that username so I can correct people when they call me Ruby? No, I just don’t feel like changing it. It’s easier to just correct people when they get it wrong. To then further extrapolate THAT assumption to mean that she MUST be a troll requires yet another leap, though it seems that you believe that anyone you don’t like must be a troll, so your Troll Radar is likely pretty off. Your posts about Tracy are rife with almost ESP-like claims of knowing her (and my, and others’ ) motivations and inner thoughts. You don’t. It’s arrogant to keep claiming you do. I doubt she wanted to end her tenure here, esp. on such a negative note. Call her naive, call her choices of words at various times foolish, call her oversensitive, and no one will disagree with you. Beyond that, you’re just making shit up to justify your outrage. Funny that you call your opponents offenderati when the shoe fits you just fine. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/442 "2009-03-23T12:03:24Z")
Why, yes, I did enjoy the final episode of Battlestar Galactica and I thought it did redeem much of the lackluster final few episodes. And, why yes, now that you mention it, I do prefer jarslberg to ordinary swiss cheese. Glad we had this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Maia\_s\_Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Maia\_s\_Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maia_s_Well)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/443 "2009-03-23T15:45:39Z")
Here’s a little bit different perspective. Let me start by admitting I haven’t read this entire thread; it’s just too common and therefore tedious. I find that I am grateful when some guy I’ve met lets me know right away what kind of a person he is. If he seizes on something I’ve said and makes a crude sexual remark along the lines of “let me see your tits” I tell him clearly but politely that that kind of comment makes me feel bad. If he persists, or begins the long process of trying to explain to me why I somehow caused his behavior, why he has the right to say whatever he wants to me, and what is flawed in my personality that causes me to feel bad, I know right away who he is. He is someone who is focused on his own need to say sexual things and desire to either a)see me naked or b), make me uncomfortable. Given the outcome of his type of behavior, I suspect b is more along the lines of what he’s looking for. We tend to use behavior that produces what we really want rather than what we claim to desire. Anyway, “let me see your tits” followed by what boils down to “I don’t give a shit about your comfort or desires, only my own” lets me know that this is a person to avoid. I have no interest in even talking to such a self-centered, self-justifying twit; life is too short. My parting thought is, ‘thanks, bubba, for showing me what you’re made of so I can make other plans’. I just have to add, incidentally, that this kind of mindset in a guy guarantees that he’ll be a really crappy lover. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/444 "2009-03-23T16:00:24Z")
[QUOTE= **Rubystreak** ;10962527Please, point out where I said anyone was out of control. **I already said this, but I’ll say it one more time: dba Fred said that men could not be expected to control what they said when women mention boobs**. **(bolding mine)** I think that’s ridiculous. So, once more with feeling: it’s not me saying that men are out of control. It’s a man saying it. Sic 'em.[/QUOTE] **Rubystreak, Whoa!!!** Is the below post of mine the one that you _somehow_ get me saying “men could not be expected to control what they said when women mention boobs” from? * * * > [@dba\_Fred](#): > > > [@Lamia](#): > > > > Men on the Dope who post intimate details about their bodies or sexuality do not get the same kind of drooling replies as women who do the same thing. > > And gosh darn it, it’s not fair! > I want to be drooled over and objectified by women! > The next thing somebody will tell me that is men and women are different! > I don’t care about evolution and culture and society and reality, > I demand the world to be the way I want it to be when I come out of my ivory town! ([post edit] shoulda been “ivory tower”) > > And stop looking at me unless I want you to look at me. 😃 Besides literally not using those words, consider the context: I was replying to **Lamia** ’s quote that men don’t get the same kind of drooling replies as women do. As a man I was humorously saying I **want** to be treated that way (_I want to be drooled over and objectified by women_!) and that I don’t care about the reasons **I’m** not (_I don’t care about evolution and culture and society and reality_). I won’t accuse you of purposely misrepresenting what I said but it does take logical leaps of Olympian scale to get “men could not be expected to control what they said when women mention boobs” from my above post. I demand you post the quote where I said anything remotely similar to “men could not be expected to control what they said when women mention boobs” **Not** what _you_ though I said, **Not** what _you_ thought I was thinking, **Not** what _you_ thought I meant, What **dba Fred** actually said. or, as **you** said: > [@Rubystreak](#): > > Lay off the inaccurate analogies and stop putting words in my mouth. p.s. my eyes are glazing over from cutting & pasting and trying to format multi-quotes ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/445 "2009-03-23T16:14:19Z")
Now\* that’s \*a lurker. ETA: **Maia’s Well** , that is. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/446 "2009-03-23T16:50:59Z")
> [@Maia\_s\_Well](#): > > Anyway, “let me see your tits” followed by what boils down to “I don’t give a shit about your comfort or desires, only my own” lets me know that this is a person to avoid. I have no interest in even talking to such a self-centered, self-justifying twit; life is too short. My parting thought is, ‘thanks, bubba, for showing me what you’re made of so I can make other plans’. > > I just have to add, incidentally, that this kind of mindset in a guy guarantees that he’ll be a really crappy lover. Please, please do not show me your tits. I respect your tits and their right to privacy. It is not within my mindset to insist on seeing them, clearly in contrast with your wishes. ---
**Author:** ![Maia\_s\_Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Maia\_s\_Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maia_s_Well)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/447 "2009-03-23T18:00:52Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Please, please do not show me your tits. I respect your tits and their right to privacy. It is not within my mindset to insist on seeing them, clearly in contrast with your wishes. Thanks for your kindness. I will return kindness by not showing you my tits, which are old and used-up from 2 1/2 years of breastfeeding, and tend to hang there like two old empty tube socks. Plus, it’s a lot of trouble to roll 'em back up and stuff back in my cross yr heart. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/448 "2009-03-23T18:41:45Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Not judging, it was obtuse (not my reference), just letting you know. 🙂 It wasn’t obtuse at all. Obscure maybe. But not obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/449 "2009-03-23T19:40:19Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > **Rubystreak, Whoa!!!** Is the below post of mine the one that you _somehow_ get me saying “men could not be expected to control what they said when women mention boobs” from? From this: > [@dba Fred](#): > > I don’t care about evolution and culture and society and reality, > I demand the world to be the way I want it to be when I come out of my ivory town! What do you mean by this? What exactly is it that is in defiance of “evolution and culture and society and reality”? You can play the disingenuous card all you want. Your argument is that men act the way you and others did towards Tracy because of the dictates of evolution and culture and society and reality, and women don’t because of same. No, sorry, nature, evolution, culture and reality aren’t making you be a needling jerk. That’s strictly on you. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/450 "2009-03-23T19:59:20Z")
> [@Maia\_s\_Well](#): > > my tits . . . are old and used-up from 2 1/2 years of breastfeeding, and tend to hang there like two old empty tube socks. Plus, it’s a lot of trouble to roll 'em back up and stuff back in my cross yr heart. > > 😃 For those interested in reading an example of breasts mentioned in a CLEARLY non-sexual context, please see above. **Suse** you might think that referencing the enhanced attractiveness of breasts is non-sexual, and for you it might be, but let me be the next in a long line of posters to disabuse you of that notion. “Makes my boobs look amazing” when declared to a mixed audience of strangers will almost always (like 99.999999% of the time) be perceived as sexual. To be candid, I am a little suprised that this would be lost on anyone. Once again, this isn’t an instance of **Tracy Lord** and the gals talking about the appearance of her bits while gazing at a dressing room mirror. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/451 "2009-03-23T20:04:37Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > For those interested in reading an example of breasts mentioned in a CLEARLY non-sexual context, please see above. **Suse** you might think that referencing the enhanced attractiveness of breasts is non-sexual, and for you it might be, but let me be the next in a long line of posters to disabuse you of that notion. “Makes my boobs look amazing” when declared to a mixed audience of strangers will almost always (like 99.999999% of the time) be perceived as sexual. What about just possessing amazing-looking boobs in mixed company? Because honestly, that is the next step here – if someone takes the time to wear an outfit that happens to flatter her shape, then isn’t that just as forward as drawing attention to her body through language (if not more)? It’s funny how the old standby of evolution’s come up here – with the constant claims of men being ‘visual creatures’ and women buying Harlequins by the truckload, shouldn’t it be the women who are unable to restrain their horny comments on a message board? They are verbal creatures. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/452 "2009-03-23T20:41:47Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > What about just possessing amazing-looking boobs in mixed company? Because honestly, that is the next step here – if someone takes the time to wear an outfit that happens to flatter her shape, then isn’t that just as forward as drawing attention to her body through language (if not more)? Yes, if you go out of your way to draw attention to your amazing boobs, you should absolutely expect to be flirted with. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/453 "2009-03-23T20:42:48Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > What about just possessing amazing-looking boobs in mixed company? Because honestly, that is the next step here – if someone takes the time to wear an outfit that happens to flatter her shape, then isn’t that just as forward as drawing attention to her body through language (if not more)? Yes, it’s exactly the same. The amazingly-titted are deserving of leers, cat-calls and rampant sexual harrasment. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/454 "2009-03-23T20:47:23Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > if someone takes the time to wear an outfit that happens to flatter her shape Missed the edit window: Someone either wears something that happens to flatter, or someone takes the time to wear something that flatters. The two scenarious are exclusive of one another. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/455 "2009-03-23T20:52:03Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Missed the edit window: > Someone either wears something that happens to flatter, or someone takes the time to wear something that flatters. The two scenarious are exclusive of one another. If you see her walking down the street or meet her out somewhere, how would you know which scenario took place while she was getting dressed that day? Some breasts are just hard to hide, and the clothes that look nice on a woman with large breasts tends to draw attention to them, because otherwise, you just look barrel chested or lumpen. > [@Algorithm](#): > > Yes, if you go out of your way to draw attention to your amazing boobs, you should absolutely expect to be flirted with. Define “go out of your way.” If you have DD or DDD cups, you have to go out of your way NOT to draw attention to them. Even if you do, they’re still rather manifest at all times. Does that mean you can flirt with me at will? ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/456 "2009-03-23T21:14:49Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > If you see her walking down the street or meet her out somewhere, how would you know which scenario took place while she was getting dressed that day? Some breasts are just hard to hide, and the clothes that look nice on a woman with large breasts tends to draw attention to them, because otherwise, you just look barrel chested or lumpen. Believe me, I know (second-hand) of which you speak. My wife had a breast reduction at age 26 (of perfectly symmetrical but very large for her frame breasts) for, _inter alia_, this reason. Nonetheless, there is a whole middle between “accentuate” and “barely-hold-in-is that-areola.” Suffice it to say, declaring in a thread about stain removal that an article of clothing makes your “boobs look amazing” does not equate to a chesty woman wearing clothing that does not make her look “barrel chested or lumpen” and comes much closer to the “I think I see nipple” scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Maia\_s\_Well](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3bc359/32.png) [@Maia\_s\_Well](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maia_s_Well)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/457 "2009-03-23T21:16:28Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > \ > > Define “go out of your way.” If you have DD or DDD cups, you have to go out of your way NOT to draw attention to them. Even if you do, they’re still rather manifest at all times. Does that mean you can flirt with me at will? I need a different definition…define “flirt”. Because if I’m attempting to flirt with someone, and he or she says, “that’s making me uncomfortable, please stop” then if I persist I can’t fool myself into thinking I’m still trying to “flirt”. Isn’t flirting supposed to be a way to connect with someone? Isn’t it supposed to be a two way street? In other words, isn’t it supposed to be, you know, fun? What am I missing here? ETA - 31 posts in six and a half years here, and I have to get caught up in this subject? WTF. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/458 "2009-03-23T21:16:42Z")
IIRC, **Cat Fight** is pretty hot. I wonder what she’s driving at here? \*I have no independent recollection of her chest and/or its size. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/459 "2009-03-23T21:19:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > IIRC, **Cat Fight** is pretty hot. Cite? what? ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/460 "2009-03-23T21:31:48Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Define “go out of your way.” If you have DD or DDD cups, you have to go out of your way NOT to draw attention to them. Even if you do, they’re still rather manifest at all times. Going out of one’s way: Making a conscious choice. If you are born with brown hair, you didn’t go out of your way to make it brown. But if you were born with blonde hair and you dye it brown, you did. Similarly with the DD cups - if you’re born with them, feel free to complain all you want about the extra attention men give you. You probably won’t get a sympathetic ear from those less well-endowed, but you’ll still have a valid point. However, if you go and get implants and make your B’s in to DD’s, then start complaining about all the men who now flirt with you, well, it was you who created that situation, now wasn’t it? > [@Rubystreak](#): > > Does that mean you can flirt with me at will? I’m sure you’re implying something other than what I’m thinking with this question, but generally the answer is “yes, until you give indication you don’t want to talk to me or otherwise want me to stop”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037.md?page=24)