# When is sexism okay? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 19, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037 "2009-03-19T16:27:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/541 "2009-03-26T16:02:22Z")
Well, I realize that some women don’t mind that type of attention, and some do. The rest of your post seems like some sort of justification for being untoward. I don’t think that’s how you meant it; I’m just saying… ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/542 "2009-03-26T16:05:15Z")
> [@dba\_Fred](#): > > I admit I was needling her here (and being funny, at least in my own mind) and figured there might be more fireworks, but I did use her own words. > on 3/1909 [Wow, our new hire is my dream guy](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=510905) my posts are #11 & #14 > And I stopped when she asked me to. > I wasn’t flirting with **TL** or stalking her; why waste the time and effort on a person 5000+ miles away (based on profile locations), especially when\* amazing\* boobs are freely available on the internet, not to mention in real-life. Thank you for saying this. You weren’t flirting, you were needling. Whether or not she deserved that is obviously a matter for debate, and no consensus will be reached. But you have backed up my opinion that the question of flirting is a red herring. This isn’t about flirting, it isn’t about oppressing the male sex drive, and all of that is offenderati bullshit. What it’s about is, were you been rude to her? Did you drag a arguably unfunny joke out past the point where the object of the joke could tolerate it? Yes. From your POV, she’s a humorless person who set herself up for a joke and then couldn’t take it. From her POV, you were making sexualized comments towards her after she asked you to stop. We can agree to disagree on this point and the conversation would then be over from any productive standpoint. It would be nice, therefore, if we could stop hijacking this thread with discussions of rape, repressing the male libido, and other nonsense. That’s not what this thread is about, and continuing efforts to make it so are making impossible to have anything resembling a rational discussion. FinnAgain, you clearly have no interest in reaching a rapprochement with me, nor any interest in understanding what I’ve said. I feel I’ve adequately justified my words, and no one but you at this point is continuing to attack them. Regardless of your contortions and attempts to twist them to make them mean what you want them to mean, your interpretation is simply wrong and flies in the face of all the facts. I can’t let your false interpretations of my words stand, and as Vinyl Turnip aptly noted, the sniping back and forth is just not going to end until you stop. The sooner you choose to do that, the sooner we can cease this infantile back and forth. If you insist on continuing to discuss me, I am going to continue to address your falsehoods. It’s all up to you how much longer we drag this out, but no, I’m not going to shut the fuck up, no matter how many times you insult me. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/543 "2009-03-26T16:32:56Z")
> [@An\_Arky](#): > > Well, I realize that some women don’t mind that type of attention, and some do. The rest of your post seems like some sort of justification for being untoward. I don’t think that’s how you meant it; I’m just saying… 1. The point is that if some women mind it, and it gets others hot, then it isn’t objectively ‘untoward’ in the first place. Look, there are some guys who want the type of woman who’d respond to "Hey baby, you’re hot! Let’s blow this joint and get to know each other better. " There are some women who want a man who’d come up to them and say “hey baby, you’re hot! Let’s blow this joint and get to know each other better.” There are also some women who’ll be offended by that, or, for that matter, by some guy _politely_ trying to chat her up at a coffee bar. Would it be ideal if all guys, and all women, were psychic and knew what the people who they approached wanted? Well, sure, but that would eliminate part of the point of flirting in the first place, _finding out._ And, let’s face it, even if a guy comes off as rude/offends a woman’s sensibilities, so what? Yah, it’s rude, obnoxious, boorish, but so what? Do we have to run with absurdities like Ruby’s shrill demands, whereby if a man isn’t psychic that he must refrain, and I quote, “altogether” from flirting if he can’t know with 100% certainty what a woman’s response will be? And all that desire to control male sexuality, simply to avoid the situation whereby someone commits the horrible sin of causing a woman to feel any bit uncomfortable? Women, of course, should be protected from such things, not being able to deal with them. (Do I even need to add the rolleyes?) 1. The other point is that if the very worst thing that happens to you in your day is that someone was rude to you, then you’re having a pretty good day, and those who go on about how horrible rudeness is need to grow much thicker skins. Is rudeness bad? Sure. is it obnoxious? Yep. But, honestly, so what? I get it, it’s not pleasing. Women who wear stank ass perfume are obnoxious. People who listen to ipods in public loud enough that you can hear their music are obnoxious. But… so what? I’m not saying giggle and smile, but, honestly, so what? So someone is rude, roll your eyes, ignore them or flip them off, whatever. But… so what? ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/544 "2009-03-26T16:35:32Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Thank you for saying this. You weren’t flirting, you were needling. \ I never said or claimed I was flirting with her! And you skipped over my **main** point! > [@dba\_Fred](#): > > My gripe (if you will) is that **TL** kept moving away from her original wording to using a “sanitized” version of her original words, I considered her trying for “plausible deniability.” So I called her on it. She wasn’t being honest enough to own the words she had used! That’s what I keep pointing out with my links. Will you admit that as the threads continued she distanced herself from the words she actually originally used? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/545 "2009-03-26T16:39:07Z")
The travesty of this thread is that after 14 pages, nobody has corrected the horrible misquoting of _Spinal Tap_ on page 1: > [@Fish](#): > > [Nigel Tufnel] What’s wrong with being sexist? [/Nigel] It’s “What’s wrong with being sexy?” **RubyStreak** , may I respectfully suggest that you have not grasped the concept of either the ignore feature, or of what it means to drop out of a thread. Hell, **Tracy Lord** knew how not to come back after announcing she was finished here. Another point: You cannot be part of American society and not understand that a comment about amazing breasts, whether it is about how they are or how they appear, is a sexual comment. Really. If you think that breasts are not by default sexual here, then explain why naked breasts cannot be shown on television or in general films. Even National Geographic doesn’t show naked breasts anymore - at least, as far as I know. It’s simply complete ignorance to suggest otherwise. Finally, I saw and enjoyed _Philadelphia Story_. I never ever once thought of it when I saw **Tracy Lord’s** user name. I only ever thought, “Gee, I wonder if she meant to leave the ‘s’ off the end.” ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/546 "2009-03-26T16:44:22Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Do we have to run with absurdities like Ruby’s shrill demands, whereby if a man isn’t psychic that he must refrain, and I quote, “altogether” from flirting if he can’t know with 100% certainty what a woman’s response will be? You know what? I’ll concede this point. I overstated myself. In private conversation with Algorithm, who is an altogether reasonable fellow, he persuaded me that my statement was too absolutist. You’re right. There’s no way to be sure you won’t offend someone, and it’s impossible to avoid it 100% of the time. The point I was trying to make is that some comments are pretty far out there, such as “show me your tits” or “can I have a picture of you?” and you shouldn’t make those kinds of comments to a woman unless you a) don’t care if you offend her, or b) you’re sure she won’t mind. If you are sincerely trying to make a connection, and you still offend, then it’s not on you. And you’re also right that, in most situations, it’s just not that big a deal, and no one’s day is ruined by it. That said, I don’t think that’s what was happening here. I don’t think there was a sincere desire to connect, but there was a desire to needle and belittle Tracy, which is what she was reacting to. Is it a big, huge deal? No. My irritation comes from comments like this in threads where it really is uncalled for and unwelcome, but I think we all agree on those. > [@](#): > > And all that desire to control male sexuality, simply to avoid the situation whereby someone commits the horrible sin of causing a woman to feel any bit uncomfortable? Women, of course, should be protected from such things, not being able to deal with them. > (Do I even need to add the rolleyes?) If you can concede that the comments about Tracy’s shirt totally derailed her Red Wine Stain thread, to the point where those hijacks were pretty obnoxious, then you can see that I’m not talking about the mere discomfort of one passing comment. We’re talking about deliberate needling, as admitted to by the needler himself. > [@](#): > > 1. The other point is that if the very worst thing that happens to you in your day is that someone was rude to you, then you’re having a pretty good day, and those who go on about how horrible rudeness is need to grow much thicker skins. In essence, I agree with this. The last point I will try to make is this: I personally don’t even feel comfortable posting in bra threads because the comments irritate me. As a woman with sort of ridiculously large breasts, I’m rather self-conscious about it. I don’t generally talk about it in mixed company, and I’m not going to have such a conversation if someone is going to leer. That’s why I entered this thread in the first place, because while you are right that you can’t guarantee that you won’t offend someone, “Show us yer tits” comments in bra threads are totally avoidable rudeness that shouldn’t be defended even in the spirit of “so what, it’s no big deal.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/547 "2009-03-26T16:56:53Z")
I think you two should just screw and get it over with. I know I’m not the only one who can smell the sexual tension. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/548 "2009-03-26T17:00:48Z")
You, you… you cad! A joke about me having sex with someone!?! Have you no decency, no decorum? I bet I was askin’ for it, eh? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/549 "2009-03-26T17:16:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think you two should just screw and get it over with. I know I’m not the only one who can smell the sexual tension. If there were tension, you wouldn’t be smelling it. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/550 "2009-03-26T17:20:51Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > 1. The point is that if some women mind it, and it gets others hot, then it isn’t objectively ‘untoward’ in the first place. Look, there are some guys who want the type of woman who’d respond to "Hey baby, you’re hot! Let’s blow this joint and get to know each other better. " There are some women who want a man who’d come up to them and say “hey baby, you’re hot! Let’s blow this joint and get to know each other better.” There are also some women who’ll be offended by that, or, for that matter, by some guy _politely_ trying to chat her up at a coffee bar. Would it be ideal if all guys, and all women, were psychic and knew what the people who they approached wanted? Well, sure, but that would eliminate part of the point of flirting in the first place, _finding out._ > > And, let’s face it, even if a guy comes off as rude/offends a woman’s sensibilities, so what? Yah, it’s rude, obnoxious, boorish, but so what? Do we have to run with absurdities like Ruby’s shrill demands, whereby if a man isn’t psychic that he must refrain, and I quote, “altogether” from flirting if he can’t know with 100% certainty what a woman’s response will be? > And all that desire to control male sexuality, simply to avoid the situation whereby someone commits the horrible sin of causing a woman to feel any bit uncomfortable? Women, of course, should be protected from such things, not being able to deal with them. > (Do I even need to add the rolleyes?) > > 1. The other point is that if the very worst thing that happens to you in your day is that someone was rude to you, then you’re having a pretty good day, and those who go on about how horrible rudeness is need to grow much thicker skins. Is rudeness bad? Sure. is it obnoxious? Yep. But, honestly, so what? I get it, it’s not pleasing. Women who wear stank ass perfume are obnoxious. People who listen to ipods in public loud enough that you can hear their music are obnoxious. But… so what? I’m not saying giggle and smile, but, honestly, so what? So someone is rude, roll your eyes, ignore them or flip them off, whatever. But… so what? I guess that’s just where we disagree and leave it at that. I can understand the “just words, get over it” sentiment, and I have a wicked nasty sense of humor, myself. But that’s just me, and I realize other people are different. I think it’s better to not push the rudeness envelope when I don’t know how the other person is going to take it, just out of basic politeness. It’s just a personal preference, and everyone’s different. I’m not all het up about this or anything, just offerring another viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/551 "2009-03-26T17:30:11Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > If there were tension, you wouldn’t be smelling it. For what it’s worth, you and I have had our spats in the past, but I should probably point out that you are generally one of the funnier, wittier, more enjoyable posters to read and you seem to have a gift for taking the piss out of folks. (Yep, myself included). I’d suggest a name-change to **Vinyl Catheter.** > [@An\_Arky](#): > > . I think it’s better to not push the rudeness envelope when I don’t know how the other person is going to take it, just out of basic politeness. It’s just a personal preference, and everyone’s different. No no, we don’t disagree on that at all. For me, in my life, I’ve always erred (well, generally at least) on the side of politeness when it came to flirting. I will certainly readily agree that my own personal aesthetic preference is for guys to be suave and cultivated when they go about flirting and for women to be witty, intelligent and strong when they deal with men. I much prefer that. My only point is that, if that isn’t the case, it’s not horrible. It’s not terribly bad. It’s just one of life’s petty annoyances. And treating rudeness, even sexual rudeness as if it was something worth getting bent out of shape about just seems, well, absurd. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/552 "2009-03-26T17:46:58Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > For what it’s worth, you and I have had our spats in the past, but I should probably point out that you are generally one of the funnier, wittier, more enjoyable posters to read and you seem to have a gift for taking the piss out of folks. (Yep, myself included). Thank you for saying so. It’s consoling that my years of daily elementary school ass-kickings may have yielded something worthwhile… ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/553 "2009-03-26T21:53:59Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Thank you for saying so. It’s consoling that my years of daily elementary school ass-kickings may have yielded something worthwhile… Isn’t it time you stopped that though? By now the kids really can’t present much of a challenge. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/554 "2009-03-26T22:02:43Z")
I _knew_ there was a punchline in there somewhere… good job! ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/555 "2009-03-26T22:42:11Z")
I was hoping for something along the lines of “they’re tougher than you think,” but I’ll settle for the compliment. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/556 "2009-03-26T22:49:44Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Thank you for saying so. It’s consoling that my years of daily elementary school ass-kickings may have yielded something worthwhile… Other than an usually shaped ass, of course. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/557 "2009-03-26T23:06:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Other than an usually shaped ass, of course. And here we come full circle - cite? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/558 "2009-03-27T01:06:56Z")
Nazi! ---
**Author:** ![Suse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Suse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suse)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/559 "2009-03-27T03:51:50Z")
\*\*whole bean \*\*, I owe you an apology for snapping at your in my first post to you in this thread. It wasn’t because of what you said, but I had had a very long and crappy day at that point and shouldn’t have been reading this trainwreck in that sort of mood. It set the tone for our subsequent exchanges and I regret that. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2009, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037/560 "2009-03-27T11:22:40Z")
> [@Suse](#): > > \*\*whole bean \*\*, I owe you an apology for snapping at your in my first post to you in this thread. It wasn’t because of what you said, but I had had a very long and crappy day at that point and shouldn’t have been reading this trainwreck in that sort of mood. It set the tone for our subsequent exchanges and I regret that. My apologies. No worries. I am sorry for saying you were dense and a dumbass. There are certainly more polite ways to disagree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-sexism-okay/490037.md?page=29)