# When is someone "the late" John Smith? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 24, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449 "2019-03-24T14:18:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/1 "2019-03-24T14:18:10Z")
Seems like if someone has died recently I see articles that say “the late John McCain” but you don’t see that if someone died long ago like JFK. Is there a rule about when you just say the person’s name without “the late” since we all know they are dead? ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/2 "2019-03-24T14:42:19Z")
There is no set rule and various style guides set the limit on when you should use late at anywhere from 10 years to 50 years. From a practical perspective “the late” is used to indicate to the reader that the person is deceased, so it makes sense to use it in any case when you think the reader might not know and the information is relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/3 "2019-03-24T15:05:43Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > There is no set rule and various style guides set the limit on when you should use late at anywhere from 10 years to 50 years. From a practical perspective “the late” is used to indicate to the reader that the person is deceased, so it makes sense to use it in any case when you think the reader might not know and the information is relevant. Agreed. You’ve gotta be careful about usage. There’s a story about how someone was making a speech and referred to Winston Churchill as “the late Chancellor of the Exchequer”, to which (a very live) Churchill in the audience loudly voiced his objections. It was explained to him that it sounded odd to speak of “the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer”. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/4 "2019-03-24T15:21:24Z")
I once read a little history pamphlet about the title of Prince of Wales and saw a reference to “His late Majesty King George III”. That’s probably an outlier. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/5 "2019-03-24T15:37:15Z")
It is considered bad from to use it for people who are merely running a little behind. 😉 Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/6 "2019-03-24T15:41:34Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > There is no set rule and various style guides set the limit on when you should use late at anywhere from 10 years to 50 years. From a practical perspective “the late” is used to indicate to the reader that the person is deceased, so it makes sense to use it in any case when you think the reader might not know and the information is relevant. Agreed. Occasionally it could be used to disambiguate between living and dead John Smiths, but that’s a bit tacky I think. ---
**Author:** ![Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ce7236/32.png) [@Mona\_Lisa\_Simpson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mona_Lisa_Simpson)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/7 "2019-03-24T18:09:36Z")
> [@Douglas Adams](#): > > Slartibartfast: > You must come with me or you will be late! > > Arthur Dent: > Late? What for? > > Slartibartfast: > What is your name, human? > > Arthur Dent: > Dent, Arthur Dent. > > Slartibartfast: > Late as in the late Dent Arthur Dent. It’s a sort of threat, you see. I am sorry, it just would feel wrong not to post that. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2019, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/8 "2019-03-24T18:49:30Z")
> [@leahcim](#): > > It is considered bad from to use it for people who are merely running a little behind. 😉 [No, but it’s a bit of an old joke.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfQtfw8U06g) ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/9 "2019-03-25T00:42:41Z")
As noted, there’s no formal rule. But I have seen it suggested that about a year is appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/10 "2019-03-25T02:02:09Z")
My husband passed away 19 years ago this July. If I say something about him to someone who never knew him or anything about him or never knew I was married, I’ll say, “my late husband.” In fact, I’ve done that here. For people who knew him or knew of him and know that he’s dead, I’ll just use his first name. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/11 "2019-03-25T13:42:22Z")
I’m from New England. New Englanders are very time conscious, and I tell people we must have started that usage. In New England, the only excuse for being late is being dead. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/12 "2019-03-25T13:58:57Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Agreed. > > You’ve gotta be careful about usage. There’s a story about how someone was making a speech and referred to Winston Churchill as “the late Chancellor of the Exchequer”, to which (a very live) Churchill in the audience loudly voiced his objections. It was explained to him that it sounded odd to speak of “the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer”. 🙂 I would think in that situation he would be the “\*former \*Chancellor of the Exchequer”. Unless this is a sly dig, what passes for humour in English politics. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/13 "2019-03-25T21:08:34Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > … you don’t see that if someone died long ago like JFK. Yes you do. The rule is that he’s “late” if a great many people still remember him being alive. And plenty of us remember JFK. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/14 "2019-03-25T21:26:40Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Yes you do. The rule is that he’s “late” if a great many people still remember him being alive. And plenty of us remember JFK. if a person was alive when you were alive you have to be reminded he’s dead? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/15 "2019-03-26T03:56:53Z")
Though Strunk & White’s _Elements of Style_ doesn’t give a hard-and-fast rule, it does suggest that “the late Julius Caesar” would run afoul of it. I think the basic rule is whether it’s certain that readers would already know (or remember) that the person is dead. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/16 "2019-03-26T05:53:58Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Yes you do. The rule is that he’s “late” if a great many people still remember him being alive. And plenty of us remember JFK. If that’s a rule, it’s been violated for the past 40 years or more. I can’t recall the last time I saw JFK referred to as “late.” I’m going to have to ask for a cite on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/17 "2019-03-26T10:32:09Z")
I found a few articles from not long ago saying the late JFK Jr and he died in 1999 ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/18 "2019-03-26T11:06:22Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Agreed. > > You’ve gotta be careful about usage. There’s a story about how someone was making a speech and referred to Winston Churchill as “the late Chancellor of the Exchequer”, to which (a very live) Churchill in the audience loudly voiced his objections. It was explained to him that it sounded odd to speak of “the ex-Chancellor of the Exchequer”. 🙂 > [@md2000](#): > > I would think in that situation he would be the “\*former \*Chancellor of the Exchequer”. Unless this is a sly dig, what passes for humour in English politics. In English usage, “late” is a synonym for “recent,” e.g.,“the late war.” I strongly suspect that in this story, both the original speaker and Churchill knew it was meant that way, and that Churchill was making a self-deprecating joke, _a la_ Mark Twain. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/19 "2019-03-26T11:31:57Z")
This is the kind of situation that just begs for the word _erstwhile_. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2019, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449/20 "2019-03-26T11:49:38Z")
A related question, if I may: if the origin of „the late John Smith“ was „the person who is no longer John Smith“, is/was ‚late‘ ever used with reference to a person who has changed their name, e.g. by marrying or coming into a title? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-is-someone-the-late-john-smith/831449.md?page=2)