# When it comes to the Office of the Presidency, what are "Illegal Orders"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 8, 2026, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685 "2026-11-08T00:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2026, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/1 "2026-11-08T00:02:15Z")
This pertains to all U.S. Presidents past, present and future. Is there an official list that tells us, in no uncertain terms, what orders given by the POTUS would be seen as “illegal”? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2026, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/2 "2026-11-08T00:18:41Z")
An order to do something illegal is an illegal order. The list is the Criminal Code. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2026, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/3 "2026-11-08T00:20:58Z")
Is there an “official” list of anything anywhere than specifies every single order that would be illegal? Who could possibly be that creative? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2026, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/4 "2026-11-08T00:21:31Z")
Sort of. Thosecarecthe obvious ones. Any order which exceeds the President’s lawful authority is also illegal. But darn hard to publish a list like that. ---
**Author:** ![UDS1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47774/32.png) [@UDS1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS1)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2026, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/5 "2026-11-08T01:03:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This pertains to all U.S. Presidents past, present and future. > Is there an official list that tells us, in no uncertain terms, what orders given by the POTUS would be seen as “illegal”? Do you have a list of everything any person could possibly do or fail to do that would be illegal? Given such a list, it would be easy to compile a list of all possible illegal presidential orders. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2026, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/6 "2026-11-08T01:17:05Z")
Actually, that still wouldn’t be complete, because there are some things that it’s legal to do, but that it’s not legal to order someone to do. For instance, I could legally sleep with someone, if they were willing, but nobody could order me to sleep with someone. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2026, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/7 "2026-11-08T01:24:08Z")
I assume that questions like this are the subject of classes at the service academies. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2026, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/8 "2026-11-08T01:26:19Z")
I wonder if the pardon power factors in. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2026, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/9 "2026-11-08T01:32:58Z")
“Go ahead and carry out this clearly illegal order but don’t worry about prosecution, because you’ll receive a presidential pardon.” That doesn’t sound very reassuring, especially not to an officer who takes the bit about “Duty, Honor, Country” seriously. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2026, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/10 "2026-11-08T05:22:15Z")
It sounds like a simple lie. When the shit hits the fan, someone is going to take the blame, and you are it, not the President. On the other hand, when you refuse, you will get fired and your career will be over, so that is when you truly have to prove your commitment to Duty, Honor, and Country. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2026, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/11 "2026-11-09T14:15:45Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I assume that questions like this are the subject of classes at the service academies. I remember a maybe 60 minute block of instruction on legal/illegal orders in Basic Training (1992). And at least one 60 minute block of instruction every year after that. It is a core element in everyone’s training, not a relic only some of the old timers might be familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2026, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/12 "2026-11-09T14:20:30Z")
I’m thinking that a greater emphasis is placed upon the officers in training which is why I mentioned the service academies. I looked at the curriculum for West Point but couldn’t identify which classes covered this. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2026, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/13 "2026-11-09T14:25:53Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I’m thinking that a greater emphasis is placed upon the officers Why? In the normal run of things, problematic illegal orders are much MUCH more likely to affect lower enlisted ranks. Sure, it’s bad news if a Captain says, “Slaughter every man, woman, and child in that village whether they appear to be combatants or not!” But the point of the training is to assure the trigger kids that they alone are responsible for their conduct–Captain will go down for issuing the order, and every Joe who follows it will as well. For West Point, I believe the class you’re looking for is[LW403 (Constitutional and Military Law)](https://courses.westpoint.edu/crse_details.cfm?crse_nbr=LW403&int_crse_eff_acad_yr=2024&int_crse_eff_term=5) ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2026, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/14 "2026-11-09T14:34:09Z")
Thank you for finding this. So a full semester course (forty lessons at 55 minutes each) in the military academy would seem to more than an hour of training once a year, which is what I was saying. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2026, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/15 "2026-11-09T14:42:04Z")
Well, yes. But less than 20% of Army Officers have graduated from West Point. And, obviously, none of the enlisted who far outnumber them. So only that few got the long course. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2026, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/16 "2026-11-09T14:43:25Z")
I’ve never served, but didn’t those who didn’t attend the USMA go through ROTC at a regular college, or go through Officers’ Candidate School? I assume similar training goes on there. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2026, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/17 "2026-11-09T14:49:01Z")
My Dad went there in the 60’s, and that’s when my knowledge comes from, but he went straight out of high school, and his school didn’t have a military program like that. He had to get a nomination from his State Representative, or Senator. I’ve forgotten which. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2026, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/18 "2026-11-09T14:51:44Z")
Yes. All US officers originate from a service academy, from ROTC, or their service’s OCS/OTS program. Even folks who make the transition from enlisted to officer somewhere mid-career do so through the OCS/OTS pipeline. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2026, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/19 "2026-11-09T14:53:44Z")
To return to the OP, I don’t think it’s possible to simply provide a list of orders that would be illegal, while others would not. The law and the real world simply don’t work that way. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there an official list that tells us, in no uncertain terms, what orders given by the POTUS would be seen as “illegal”? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2026, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/20 "2026-11-09T15:11:25Z")
In reality, the legality of the orders will be whatever the winner of the ensuing fracas decides. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685.md?page=2)