# When it comes to the Office of the Presidency, what are "Illegal Orders"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 8, 2026, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685 "2026-11-08T00:02:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2026, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/41 "2026-11-10T19:05:21Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > False. The first class I got on laws of land warfare was in Basic when I was 17. Everybody gets it. when were you 17? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2026, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/42 "2026-11-10T19:10:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > when were you 17? Yes, when I was 17. At least back then, you could enlist with parental consent at age 17 in the delayed entry program. The math has to work out so that you’ll be 18 when you arrive at your first duty station after completing initial entry training. So I graduated basic at age 17 and some change. I’m not sure how it is nowadays. But getting back to the point, everybody gets laws of warfare training in basic. I’m sure that hasn’t changed since the Cold War. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2026, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/43 "2026-11-10T19:12:23Z")
I believe the question, still unanswered, is “When were you 17?” ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2026, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/44 "2026-11-10T19:12:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I believe the question, still unanswered, is “When were you 17?” I’ll narrate my previous response for you: > [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Yes, when I was 17. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2026, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/45 "2026-11-10T19:14:05Z")
Let me try this: How long ago were you 17? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2026, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/46 "2026-11-10T19:14:56Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Let me try this: How long ago were you 17? In the summer of 1989. The laws of math suggest that was 37 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2026, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/47 "2026-11-10T19:15:00Z")
Never mind. That confused conversation was hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2026, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/48 "2026-11-10T19:20:23Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > But getting back to the point, everybody gets laws of warfare training in basic. You got it 37 years ago, so, at best that is a guess. The right, and Trump and Hegseth in particular, have made incursions into military training since then. Assuming that nothing has changed training-wise in 37 years is definitely not an assumption I would dare to make. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2026, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/49 "2026-11-10T19:21:05Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > False. The first class I got on laws of land warfare was in Basic when I was 17. Everybody gets it. Then I stand corrected. Was it given in seriousness, or was it along the lines of, “The Geneva Convention says we have to teach you this, but in the real world…”? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2026, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/50 "2026-11-10T19:33:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Assuming that nothing has changed training-wise in 37 years is definitely not an assumption I would dare to make. Here’s how this conversation could’ve gone more productively: “HMS Irruncible, you were probably 17 a long time ago, is it possible that training or doctrine has changed since then?” “That’s a good question. It seems that the policy went mostly unchanged until 2020, when it underwent some [revisions](https://lieber.westpoint.edu/efficacy-u-s-armys-law-of-war-training-program/), but I can find no evidence that it’s been rescinded or countermanded. Absent any published order or press release to that effect, it’s a safe assumption that policy hasn’t changed. If you’re aware of any such evidence, I’d welcome the opportunity to review it together to further our shared understanding.” > [@Dorjan](#): > > Then I stand corrected. Was it given in seriousness, or was it along the lines of, “The Geneva Convention says we have to teach you this, but in the real world…”? It was: “these are the laws of warfare. If you violate them, you will go to jail. If you see someone else violating them and fail to report the violation, both of you will go to jail. If you are ordered to violate them and do not refuse those orders, you and the issuing officer will go to jail. We can’t cover every single illegal thing you can’t do, but here are about 50 specific examples”. I will freely allow that the Cold War Army was different from the War On Terror Army. It was mostly a peacetime army and hence much more by-the-book, or so I’m led to understand. While I’m pretty sure that training policy on the laws of warfare was static until 2020 or so, I couldn’t swear that the information was never presented with a bad-faith wink, as you are speculating. But it is indeed speculation. And the training is still there, in a revised form. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2026, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/51 "2026-11-10T19:55:58Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > It was: “these are the laws of warfare. If you violate them, you will go to jail. If you see someone else violating them and fail to report the violation, both of you will go to jail. If you are ordered to violate them and do not refuse those orders, you and the issuing officer will go to jail. We can’t cover every single illegal thing you can’t do, but here are about 50 specific examples”. Thanks for this. It was enough info for me to go digging. The primary authoritative reference for the U.S. military is the Department of Defense Law of War Manual (with recent updates through July 2023), while land forces specifically rely on joint field manuals like FM 6-27 / MCTP 11-10C (The Commander’s Handbook on the Law of Land Warfare). For the Army, Regulation 350-1, Level A Law of War (LOW) training provides the fundamental baseline knowledge required for every individual member of the U.S. Army. It is built directly into Initial Military Training (IMT), meaning all soldiers receive this core curriculum during Basic Combat Training (BCT) or initial officer accession courses. Level A training boils the entire expanse of the Law of War down to ten mandatory execution standards that every soldier must memorize and follow. Here is the actual PowerPoint presentation currently used for Level A Law of Warfare Traning: [https://tjaglcs.army.mil/Portals/0/Resources/STPs/ADN/Law%20of%20Armed%20Conflict%20(LOAC)%20(OCT%2024).pptx](https://tjaglcs.army.mil/Portals/0/Resources/STPs/ADN/Law%20of%20Armed%20Conflict%20(LOAC)%20(OCT%2024).pptx) ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2026, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685/52 "2026-11-10T20:03:19Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Here is the actual PowerPoint presentation currently used for Level A Law of Warfare Traning: > [https://tjaglcs.army.mil/Portals/0/Resources/STPs/ADN/Law%20of%20Armed%20Conflict%20(LOAC)%20(OCT%2024).pptx](https://tjaglcs.army.mil/Portals/0/Resources/STPs/ADN/Law%20of%20Armed%20Conflict%20(LOAC)%20(OCT%2024).pptx) This is actually a lot more comprehensive than the training I received (or at least, that I recall receiving). It’s good stuff. Tying it back to the OP, all military personnel are equipped with a sturdy framework for understanding the legality of orders. There’s no excusing the Venezuelan boat strikes. Hegseth and that entire chain of command, down to the finger on the trigger, should go to jail for it. Including Trump, if it turns out the order originated from him. Now of course, there is some, err, unevenness of rigor in how the laws are enforced by the executive branch at present. That notwithstanding, nobody has any grounds to say they didn’t know. All parties involved committed a crime, nobody is in possession of any memo or order that changes this fact, and they know it. Impeachment should be only the _beginning_ of Hegseth’s troubles, and Hegseth should only be the _beginning_ of the prosecutions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-it-comes-to-the-office-of-the-presidency-what-are-illegal-orders/1034685.md?page=2)