# When life begins and ends... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 8, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928 "2003-07-08T03:44:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/21 "2003-07-09T02:13:35Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by newcrasher \* \*\* > [@](#): > > I guess you will leave responding to the OP to others as well? hmmm? > > The discussion is not about conception, but life. > > But feel free to hijack this thread anywhere you see fit. > > Sorry, but I have found this very frustrating. \*\* Sorry that you felt I was hijacking your OP. You framed the OP at least partly in reference to the abortion issue, I responded in kind. Standard medical/embryological texts define conception/fertilization as the start of a new human life. Even the medline cite from the gummint that I listed begins with conception. So, to answer your first OP question…no, I don’t think that a heart beating or measurable brain waves are scientifically recognized as “the start of a human life”, although some folks may attach other significance to those events. > [@](#): > > It seems logical that the same criteria be used for when life is over be applied to when it begins. Wow, funny that no embryologist (or geneticist or human develpment MD etc…) that I know of follows that logic. (Do you have even **one** cite for something that should be so logical?) ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/22 "2003-07-09T02:25:13Z")
As the rules of Great Debates do not permit me to fully express my feelings about this thread, I cordially invite you to [The Pit](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=196266) ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/23 "2003-07-09T11:48:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > > Wow, funny that no embryologist (or geneticist or human develpment MD etc…) that I know of follows that logic. (Do you have even **one** cite for something that should be so logical?) \*\* I said it “seems” implying it is my opinion. Can you give me a reason why the criteria for the end of life should not apply to the start of life? That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/24 "2003-07-09T12:48:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Wow, funny that no embryologist (or geneticist or human develpment MD etc…) that I know of follows that logic. (Do you have even one cite for something that should be so logical?) Thou has commitited the sin of JThunder. 5 recitiations of first priniciples and one mathematical proof that 1+1 != 3 on my desk by next week. If you have a problem with his logic, point it out. Otherwise, shoosh. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/25 "2003-07-09T13:23:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Wow, funny that no embryologist (or geneticist or human develpment MD etc…) that I know of follows that logic. (Do you have even one cite for something that should be so logical?) Thou has commitited the sin of JThunder. 5 recitiations of first priniciples and one mathematical proof that 1+1 != 3 on my desk by next week. If you have a problem with his logic, point it out. Otherwise, shoosh. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/26 "2003-07-09T13:37:11Z")
Oh what the hell, I thought this was a self evident notion… The question is when does life (I guess human life) begin. The suggested “logic” was that life **begins** at the heartbeat or brainwave. (ummm btw, which is it? In human fetal development, the heart starts beating around 4-5 weeks of development…measurable brain waves occur somewhat later). What exactly do we call the first 4 weeks of fetal development? Are you suggesting that a dead organism is “developing”. :dubious: If we are discussing the science of when life begins, heart rhythms or brain waves are not recognized by any scientist I know of as the beginning. If you are discussing something else (like when “personhood” begins, or when the organism is developed enough to grant it rights, or some other philosophical notion) …then you’d want to start a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/27 "2003-07-09T19:11:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > What if I wait for the zygote to divide and form, say, an 8-cell embryo. If I kill one of those cells, is it murder? What if I tease out one cell with a glass needle. Now, that cell can become an identical twin to the original embryo. If I kill that cell, it’s murder. Whups! Better take that needle and quietly shove the cell back into the embryo, so that it will only be one human again. _Now_ I can kill that cell with impunity. I love and will probably adopt, reproduce and distribute (without express written consent) this scenario. I’m gonna second the ego argument. Without the ego, it’s just flesh. If brainwaves and heartbeats are the begin and end-all, then is a person hooked to a machine that beats his or her heart still really alive? Isn’t that all the umbilical cord amounts to? A cord connected to a machine that keeps it all going? So my opinion is that life begins at viability, but sentience begins with the ego. But that’s purely logic, and not something fancy like a degree or a cite or anything. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/28 "2003-07-09T19:15:09Z")
> [@](#): > > But that’s purely logic, and not something fancy That came out wrong. Your logical conclusions may draw themselves somewhere else completely. What I meant was that I was speaking purely from a “Well, if I believe A and B, then C makes sense” YMMV, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/29 "2003-07-09T20:49:09Z")
If life begins at conception, and if the majority of fertilized eggs do not successfully implant and die and/or are ejected during menstruation, then does that mean that Heaven is knee-deep in sentient cellular slurry? Re the definition of the end of life, it’s been a thorny question for philosophers and medical professionals for a long time. I refer you to the book _Buried Alive_ by Jan Bondeson for a fascinating discussion of the issue, including the heated exchanges of monographs and articles by competing authorities throughout the 1700s and 1800. In the context of Bondeson’s book, the issue is relevant because people wanted to make sure doctors, priests, etc. had a reliable means of determining whether or not somebody was actually dead, in order to prevent their premature burial and subsequent revival underground. Very interesting reading. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/30 "2003-07-10T00:38:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by newcrasher \* > \*\*I was reading something this evening about indications that death has occured. Listed were the cessation of heartbeat and the inability of the brain to produce measurable brainwaves. > > Should this same criteria be used to decide when life begins? Perhaps it would at least provide a place of agreement for opposing sides in the abortion issue. > > If life is over when the heart stops beating and brain waves cease, then why has it not started when these things first occur? It would seem a scientific definition unburdened with having to deal with a “soul”. > > It seems logical that the same criteria be used for when life is over be applied to when it begins. \*\* For medical practice purposes, yes, I could agree with what you are proposing. It would seem logical. Certainly more logical than PPH’s view that it begins at conception, yet they do not consider abortion murder. They view it as simply terminating a pregnancy. I do personally hold the view that an individual’s life begins at conception, but if the above is along the lines you were thinking, I’d agree that it was a reasonable guide to follow. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/31 "2003-07-10T02:45:13Z")
Back at the OP … The whole thing about _conception_ and _heartbeat_ and _brainwaves_ has nothing to do with the start/end of **life**. These are diversions. When a human dies, then this can be defined as having no EEG and heartbeat, sure - but in this case we are talking about irreversible loss of that persons conscious self. Not the end of life. So we should focus here on just **life** - without discussion of soul, consciousness or other messy concepts which were intentionally avoided by the OP. Life does not start. Life is a continuum. Life did start on earth billions of years ago. As **robertliguri** put it this is being pedantic. But it is not. We are talking about the scientific definition of life, which is propagation of DNA via various modes through time-space. Our usual definition of life is coloured by figures of speech and connections with human consciousness. These definitions are vague and contradictory. To clarify the debate this clear definition of life must be used. So OP. No you cannot reverse the criteria that decides when **death** begins to when **life** begins, because the former refers to irreversible loss of a conscious self, whereas the latter applies to a continuous process that has only one beginning in the universe. Of course you can ask “When does a conscious self begin?”, and “When will life end?”, but these are different questions for different threads. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/32 "2003-07-10T03:19:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*What exactly do we call the first 4 weeks of fetal development? Are you suggesting that a dead organism is “developing”. :dubious: > \*\* Nitpick: Something that isn’t “alive” needn’t be “dead.” But what do you call the items that join to form the zygote? They aren’t “dead,” obviously. They also aren’t “a human life.” Why couldn’t the first 4 weeks of fetal development be considered the same thing? Like a sperm and an ovum, it is living matter that can form a human being. (Note: As I don’t find the question of “when does an individual life begin” spectacularly useful, I don’t have a dog in this fight. I find none of the arguments so compelling that they require defending. And I think most of the arguments are formed with the intent to bolster a political/philosophical opinion rather than the other way around.) Julie ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/33 "2003-07-10T06:54:14Z")
Back in the heyday of premature burials, one physician won an award for inventing a special device for determining whether a patient was really dead. It was a set of serrated forceps that were used to pinch the patient’s nipples. If they don’t feel _that,_ hell, they must be dead. BTW, I hope no one minds if I add one more note about the “hypothetical petri dish” scenarios: you may have noticed that a few days ago someone created a “shemale” embryo. IIUC, they basically created a chimeric human embryo, like the sheep-goat chimera which was made some years ago. You take two separate embryos, and shove them together. In theory, you could use that to add functioning genes to an embryo with a genetic disease, which is why they created the shemale in the first place. Frankly, I think that we finally have a solution to all those unwanted frozen embryos that are created during the course of fertility treatments. Apparently the Pope is urging Catholics to adopt them. I have a better idea: amalgamate the little bastards, then kill- I mean, er, _koff koff_ amputate 'em! You’ll be left with a single viable embryo, which can be implanted in a volunteer. Of course, that opens the question of whether that embryo will have all the souls of all the other embryos, all combined into one body. If that happens, well… have you seen “The One”? “I am Yu Law! I am nobody’s bitch! You… are MINE!” ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/34 "2003-07-10T13:01:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*Nitpick: Something that isn’t “alive” needn’t be “dead.” > > But what do you call the items that join to form the zygote? They aren’t “dead,” obviously. They also aren’t “a human life.” Why couldn’t the first 4 weeks of fetal development be considered the same thing? Like a sperm and an ovum, it is living matter that can form a human being. > \*\* They’re called gametes. See [here](http://www.terravista.pt/enseada/1881/lifebegi.html) > [@](#): > > In sum, a mature human sperm and a mature human oocyte are products of gametogenesis—each has only 23 chromosomes. They each have only half of the required number of chromosomes for a human being. They cannot singly develop further into human beings. They produce only “gamete” proteins and enzymes. They do not direct their own growth and development. And they are not individuals, i.e., members of the human species. They are only parts—each one a part of a human being. On the other hand, a human being is the immediate product of fertilization. As such he/she is a single-cell embryonic zygote, an organism with 46 chromosomes, the number required of a member of the human species. This human being immediately produces specifically human proteins and enzymes, directs his/her own further growth and development as human, and is a new, genetically unique, newly existing, live human individual. > > After fertilization the single-cell human embryo doesn’t become another kind of thing. It simply divides and grows bigger and bigger, developing through several stages as an embryo over an 8-week period. Several of these developmental stages of the growing embryo are given special names, e.g., a morula (about 4 days), a blastocyst (5-7 days), a bilaminar (two layer) embryo (during the second week), and a trilaminar (3-layer) embryo (during the third week).14 The essay I linked to (again) has numerous cites (scroll to the bottom). I’ll ask again for **one** embryological cite that stipulates that “human life begins with a heartbeat or brainwave”. If it’s such a logical premise…surely it’s a **supported** premise? If not…shouldn’t this thread be in **IMHO**? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/35 "2003-07-10T13:33:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*They’re called gametes. > \*\* And? You spoke as if the only alternative to “alive” is “dead.” That is, obviously, not the only alternative. If someone says that a rock is not alive is doesn’t mean the rock is “dead.” So, your > [@](#): > > Are you suggesting that a dead organism is “developing”. is really quite silly, and no amount of defining “gametes” turns it into a reasonable summation of your opponents’ arguments. Julie ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/36 "2003-07-10T19:02:48Z")
LIFE BEGINS… I’ll go with “at conception” with two codicils: • The haploid cells that come together at conception are alive as well. I tend to think of them as a special case though; they may be “life” but they are not a living example of a life form. • My political agendometer’s dial indicates that this might be someone’s First Clause for yet another right-to-life argument. For the record, my agreeing that someone or something is alive does _not_ mean I do not think there can exist circumstances where it is OK to kill it. LIFE ENDS… In the abstract, when the collectivity of cells and processes cease to be knitted together as a living organism. We don’t have a perfect measure of that, I guess, but absence of meaningful electrical activity in the brain would appear to correlate pretty well. This one could be politically loaded too but my political agendometer’s needle is laying quiet on this one. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/37 "2003-07-10T23:19:09Z")
Didnt anyone read my post? The whole debate about when life starts and ends is bullshit. It is meaningless, since life does not start and end more than one in the whole universe. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/38 "2003-07-10T23:43:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by antechinus \* > \*\*Didnt anyone read my post? > > The whole debate about when life starts and ends is bullshit. > > It is meaningless, since life does not start and end more than one in the whole universe. \*\* Yes. You have a point, but “life” as referred to in the OP is not what you are discussing. ---
**Author:** ![antechinus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/fbc32d/32.png) [@antechinus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antechinus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/39 "2003-07-11T03:15:46Z")
The point is that the OP question is meaningless, unless you interpret life as propagating DNA. It is like asking when does blue begin? or When does space begin? Perhaps the OP wanted to ask: When does a conscious self begin? ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928/40 "2003-07-11T11:07:59Z")
Damn but this OP has been hijacked to all hell and back. If I may rephrase the OP slightly: We agree that when someone stops having certain recognizable features (heartbeat, breathing unaided, brain activity, etc.) they are dead. Does this imply that before they have these features they aren’t alive, and if so, why not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-begins-and-ends/186928.md?page=3)