# When life = misery, jail time, and/or death **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 9, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864 "2013-05-09T01:52:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/1 "2013-05-09T01:52:16Z")
Marie Fleming, a woman in Ireland, has been denied the right to have her partner assist her in dying without him ending up in jail. So she has to remain alive and suffering while her body deteriorates: > **[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News](https://www.huffpost.com/?err_code=404&err_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2013%2F04%2F29%2Fmarie-fleming_n_3180408.html)** > > Read the latest headlines, news stories, and opinion from Politics, Entertainment, Life, Perspectives, and more. Some say prayer would be the best thing for her… :dubious: : > **[Why Marie Fleming Should Not Have the 'Right to Die'](https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/35203-why-marie-fleming-should-not-have-the-right-to-die)** > > The Dublin High Court made the right call on the controversial case focused on Marie Fleming's right-to-die. Let's pray for Fleming. Life, in the above case, means little more than pain. In the meantime, a woman in El Salvador has gone into renal failure as the result of a complicated pregnancy (and the fetus is anencephalic to boot), but no abortion are allowed in that country for any reason. So she’ll die, the fetus will be born dead or die shortly after birth, and her older child will have no mother. If the doctors help her have an abortion, they’ll go to jail along with her: > **[Critically ill woman faces jail time if she goes forward with lifesaving...](https://www.salon.com/2013/04/18/critically_ill_woman_faces_jail_time_if_she_goes_forward_with_life_saving_abortion/)** > > In addition to her health complications, doctors have confirmed that the fetus has anencephaly and is nonviable In that case, a therapeutic abortion would be the best thing for her. But it probably won’t happen. This should serve as a reminder that life isn’t always desirable and an abortion isn’t always a tragedy. (I’d put that on a bumper sticker, but someone would probably run me off the road and kill me in their outrage over such “anti-life” views.) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/2 "2013-05-09T01:57:22Z")
Needless to say, in both countries you cited, the Catholic church has had a strong influence on the legal system. There are other factors in their judicial histories, and certain other religious sects have similar tenets and power in some other places, but that is the common thread of the OP’s examples. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/3 "2013-05-09T02:04:07Z")
I believe life, whatever that is, begins at conception. I don’t like abortion. But I’m in favor of women having safe and legal access to an abortion, if it’s needed. Better that than having _two_ people die, and my beliefs should not rule the decisions of someone else, since they are religion based. An abortion, in the case of that woman, is something that would be acceptable to any person with an ounce of human compassion. In 1992 I voted for the Perot/Stockdale ticket, based on something the latter said in the vice Presidential debate. Ret. Adm. Stockdale, when asked about his position on abortion said “I believe that what a woman does with her own body is her business, period.” ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/4 "2013-05-09T02:30:09Z")
These are the same fucking assholes who think a woman with an ectopic pregnancy should be forced to undergo surgery and loss of a tube rather than have a simple methotrexate shot. I hate the Catholic church’s stance on women’s reproductive issues. They’re just evil. A baby without a brain to them is the same thing as a full grown woman. Sick celibate sociopaths who should stick to their own damned gender and stop attempting to dictate to women what we can and cannot do with our bodies. ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/5 "2013-05-09T02:36:28Z")
This is exactly one of the kinds of problems I have with Christianity. What really gets under my skin is those idiotic “bad” Christians. An example would be…that troll, **name redacted** , who kept saying, “God bless you always!!!:):):)” Mild, normal Christians, I don’t have a problem with. It is those type of people, like **name redacted**. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/6 "2013-05-09T13:00:29Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Sick celibate sociopaths who should stick to their own damned gender and stop attempting to dictate to women what we can and cannot do with our bodies. Oh come on, that’s not fair. Some of them are anything but celibate. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/7 "2013-05-09T16:41:43Z")
God wants the first woman to live and the second woman to die. Why do you hate children? God Bless Anonymous User and You and Him Always!!! 🙂 🙂 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/8 "2013-05-09T17:19:36Z")
But but…what if the kids survive…and is the next Beethoven??? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/9 "2013-05-09T17:33:00Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Marie Fleming, a woman in Ireland, has been denied the right to have her partner assist her in dying without him ending up in jail. So she has to remain alive and suffering while her body deteriorates: > > [HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/29/marie-fleming_n_3180408.html) > > In the meantime, a woman in El Salvador No need to go to El Salvador for comparison. You can stay in Ireland : [Death of Savita Halappanavar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar) > [@](#): > > Halappanavar, a Hindu of Indian origin, was suffering from a miscarriage when she was some 17 weeks pregnant, and she sought medical attention and treatment at University Hospital Galway. The hospital told them the foetus was not viable, but they could not perform an abortion under Irish Law as the foetus’s heart was still beating. During the next several days, Halappanavar was diagnosed with septicemia which lead to multiple organ failure and her death. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/10 "2013-05-09T18:11:04Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > No need to go to El Salvador for comparison. You can stay in Ireland : [Death of Savita Halappanavar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar) Oh, I remember that case. The two I cited were just more recent. Sadly, they won’t be the last. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/11 "2013-05-09T18:27:16Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > This should serve as a reminder that life isn’t always desirable and an abortion isn’t always a tragedy. (I’d put that on a bumper sticker, but someone would probably run me off the road and kill me in their outrage over such “anti-life” views.) To the contrary, I think it’s precisely the value of life that makes these tragic cases and exactly why she should be allowed to die and that particular abortion needs to occur. I’m not a Catholic, but from my own upbringing as a Protestant and from my Jewish friends, there are specific instructions that some laws hold greater precedence. Particularly, the preservation of life is the big one, so even an Orthodox Jew who is a doctor would violate the rule against working on the Sabbath to save a life. It might technically be an abortion in the second case, but if that really seems to misrepresent that reality of it. It’s not like the child will live a normal life, or even have some kind of disability if the pregnancy goes to term, which is what I think most people think about when debating abortion. Hell, it’s not even a case where it’s a trade-off of abort and the mother lives, don’t and the mother dies but the child lives. This is a case of saving the mother’s life or letting them both die. The child has a low chance of even surviving birth, and there’s only been a few recorded surviving more than a few days. Either way, these are the sorts of stories, and there’s ones at the opposite extremes too, that just go to show us that these sorts of complicated issues can’t be decided with black and white world views. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/12 "2013-05-24T03:21:00Z")
Also, fuck these people and their “redemptive suffering” bullshit–paragraph 9 in link: [http://www.cinews.ie/article.php?artid=11195](http://www.cinews.ie/article.php?artid=11195) I can’t see anything redemptive about unremitting pain and misery. Nothing purifying or cleansing either. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/13 "2013-05-24T06:39:43Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > To the contrary, I think it’s precisely the value of life that makes these tragic cases and exactly why she should be allowed to die and that particular abortion needs to occur. > > I’m not a Catholic, but from my own upbringing as a Protestant and from my Jewish friends, there are specific instructions that some laws hold greater precedence. Particularly, the preservation of life is the big one, so even an Orthodox Jew who is a doctor would violate the rule against working on the Sabbath to save a life. > > It might technically be an abortion in the second case, but if that really seems to misrepresent that reality of it. It’s not like the child will live a normal life, or even have some kind of disability if the pregnancy goes to term, which is what I think most people think about when debating abortion. Hell, it’s not even a case where it’s a trade-off of abort and the mother lives, don’t and the mother dies but the child lives. This is a case of saving the mother’s life or letting them both die. The child has a low chance of even surviving birth, and there’s only been a few recorded surviving more than a few days. > > Either way, these are the sorts of stories, and there’s ones at the opposite extremes too, that just go to show us that these sorts of complicated issues can’t be decided with black and white world views. I can see that you’re reasonable about this, but I do think it is black and white. People should have full autonomy over their body. If they choose to kill themselves, that option should be available, and if they choose to have an abortion, that should be available as well. End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/14 "2013-05-24T15:10:50Z")
+1. ---
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/15 "2013-05-30T04:47:36Z")
And the “culture of life” chooses death for [Beatriz of El Salvador](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57586726/pregnant-el-salvador-woman-denied-life-saving-abortion/). That’s just beyond fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/16 "2013-05-30T17:08:19Z")
Yep, I had the link for that in my starting post. But the point should be reiterated at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![EverwonderWhy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee59a6/32.png) [@EverwonderWhy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EverwonderWhy)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/17 "2013-05-30T18:36:25Z")
Ew, I just read about the El Salvador abortion case yesterday in the[NYT](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/29/world/americas/pregnant-sick-and-pressing-salvadoran-abortion-law.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0). American hospitals have offered to perform the abortion, so I hope it’s not too late. I am suspicious of the woman’s lawyer who may be using her to change the law at great risk to her health. Now at 26 weeks, the termination is more invasive and risky than it was months ago when the story first broke. [Salvadoran Court Denies Abortion to Ailing Woman](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/30/world/americas/salvadoran-court-denies-abortion-to-ailing-woman.html) > [@](#): > > But in a 4-to-1 ruling, the court cited the country’s legal “absolute impediment to authorize the practice of abortion,” and ruled that “the rights of the mother cannot be privileged over those” of the fetus. Um yes, the woman’s rights are always privileged over the fetus. Particularly a fetus without a brain and no chance of survival. Some anencephalic fetuses can’t even be delivered vaginally because the lack of skull bones needed to put pressure on the cervix, enabling passage into the birth canal. It is barbaric to force this woman to undergo a caesarean section for fetus with a lethal prognosis. > [@](#): > > Anti-abortion groups in El Salvador praised the ruling. “Once again Salvadorans have given an example to the entire world that we defend the right to life of all human beings however small, poor, vulnerable or defenseless,” said Julia Regina de Cardenal, director of the foundation Yes to Life. More like, El Salvador is an example of theocratic institutionalized misogyny. Truly disturbing. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/18 "2013-07-06T17:40:04Z")
They ended up doing an emergency C-section and delivered a dead baby: > **[El Salvador woman denied abortion delivers dead baby in C-section](https://theworld.org/dispatch/news/regions/americas/130604/el-salvador-woman-denied-abortion-delivers-dead-baby-c-section)** > > A critically ill woman was denied an abortion in El Salvador by the Supreme Court, so doctors instead performed a life-saving C-section. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-life-misery-jail-time-and-or-death/657864/19 "2013-07-06T18:12:30Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > They ended up doing an emergency C-section and delivered a dead baby: > > [http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/130604/el-salvador-woman-denied-abortion-delivers-dead-baby-c-section](http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/130604/el-salvador-woman-denied-abortion-delivers-dead-baby-c-section) So they tortured the poor woman with unnecessary surgery for something that was always going to die. Nice work, jackasses.