# When Margaret Thatcher dies, will you... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2009, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925 "2009-06-16T10:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/281 "2013-04-09T14:15:23Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > She wholeheartedly supported Pinochet while lambasting Mandela. Even if you ignore what she did within the sphere of British internal politics, she was scum. > > One of her spawn tried to engineer a coup in Equatorial Guinea in order to enrich himself. Another was an unapologetic racist. > > Her very existence made the world a lesser place. Good riddance. And none of her children had room for her at the end; perhaps they had no spare bedrooms. Thatcher died at the Ritz. And will have a [“Ceremonial” Funeral](http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/09/margaret-thatcher-debate-state-funeral)–one step below a State Funeral. > [@](#): > > Costs are to be borne by the government and Thatcher’s estate, with Downing Street declining to reveal at this stage the proportion to be met by the nation. A No 10 spokesman said the payments from the public purse would be published after the event. They will undoubtedly include the costs of the planned military procession, involving hundreds of members of the armed services, and of the major policing and security operation expected to be mounted. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/282 "2013-04-09T14:36:31Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > It’s very easy to be dispassionate when you’re not among those directly affected. Thanks to Thatcher and her govt intentionally destroying the UK’s manufacturing sector, because they thought a service economy would be better, there are whole towns where there simply aren’t enough jobs for even half the working-age people. Thatcherism is not just a theory for those people. Granted. But why does that merit her death and dancing on her grave, especially when she has not been involved in those policies, or even government, for years? Let’s try this: What would you think of me if I ranted and raved about, say, Obama deserving to die right now, and actually meaning it? Now, I don’t wish that on the guy although I don’t particularly like him or his policies. Those “dancing on Thatcher’s grave” aren’t being passionate; they’re being ghoulish. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/283 "2013-04-09T15:24:15Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > It’s very easy to be dispassionate when you’re not among those directly affected. Thanks to Thatcher and her govt intentionally destroying the UK’s manufacturing sector, because they thought a service economy would be better, there are whole towns where there simply aren’t enough jobs for even half the working-age people. Thatcherism is not just a theory for those people. Do you have a cite that the Thatcher government intentionally destroyed the UK’s manufacturing sector? It would seem like a very bad move, for an astute politician. If you mean “changed government policy to be less supportive of UK manufacturing”, I can go with that, to a degree (I would say “slightly less supportive”, but whatever). But no electable government sets about deliberately destroying the livelihood of its electorate. That’s crazy talk. The fact is, those blighted communities you talk of were f\*cked whatever government was in power. It had become too expensive to pay them the wages they expected. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/284 "2013-04-09T19:37:41Z")
> [@pancakes3](#): > > Apparently on twitter, the hashtag #nowthatcherisdead read to some as #NowThatCherIsDead leading to people thinking that Cher was dead. Now that Cher is Dead, Chaz is an orphan? I heard Thatcher had died last night. I eventually had to get on here to see if there was dancing. So…that’s what I did when she died. But it’s like Ronnie Reagan. The woman who died today was the senile shell of the enemy, rather than the enemy. She faded away instead of dying in vigor. So there’s no victory today. She got to die of old age and be a historical figure like Churchill or Franco. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/285 "2013-04-09T20:37:06Z")
> [@Suil\_Dubh](#): > > Wait, hold on, WHAT?! > > CHER IS DEAD?! Can a creature made of pure silicone \*ever \*really die? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2013, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/286 "2013-04-09T23:36:52Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > And she managed to keep those polices in effect after she left office…how, again? If memory serves, the UK has had more than one government after Thatcher left #10 Downing Street. Can you elaborate on how she managed to keep her policies from being reversed, especially after her mind went? As is often the case, by shifting the [Overton window.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window) Or, as [Michael Hudson puts it](http://michael-hudson.com/2013/04/failed-privatizations-the-thatcher-legacy/): > [@](#): > > Yet by 1997 the Conservatives were voted out of office by one of the largest margins in their history. What concerned voters were the results of privatization that Mrs. Thatcher had not warned them about. Prices did not decline proportionally to cost cuts and productivity gains. Many services were cut back, especially on the least utilized transport routes. The largest privatized bus company was charged with cut-throat monopoly practices. The water system broke down, while consumer charges leapt. Electricity prices were shifted against residential consumers in favor of large industrial users. Economic inequality widened as the industrial labor force shrunk by two million from 1979 to 1997, while wages stagnated in the face of soaring profits for the privatized companies. The tax cuts financed by their selloff turned out to benefit mainly the rich. > > Opinion polls showed that voters had opposed privatization at the outset (as did the press and many Conservative back benchers), but the Conservatives pointed out that Tony Blair rode to victory in part by abandoning “Clause Four” of the Labour Party’s 1904 constitution, advocating state control over the means of production, distribution and exchange. Most voters wanted tighter regulation in the public interest, but not a return to state ownership. On the other hand, they feared the prospect of selling off the post office, the BBC and the London tube (subway) system. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/287 "2013-04-10T01:38:55Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Ding dong, the witch is dead. Shame it didn’t happen 35 years earlier. Good bloody riddance. Now where are my dancing shoes? online sales of that song has really took off. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/288 "2013-04-10T06:13:24Z")
> [@johnpost](#): > > online sales of that song has really took off. How do you **sell** a song the whole English-speaking world already knows?! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/289 "2013-04-10T09:30:39Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Granted. But why does that merit her death and dancing on her grave, especially when she has not been involved in those policies, or even government, for years? Let’s try this: What would you think of me if I ranted and raved about, say, Obama deserving to die right now, and actually meaning it? Now, I don’t wish that on the guy although I don’t particularly like him or his policies. > > Those “dancing on Thatcher’s grave” aren’t being passionate; they’re being ghoulish. While it’s not something I’d do, you’re still not grasping the amount of suffering her policies caused. Thousands of families on hunger rations, the poll tax, the war she could have prevented, the shameful and unmitigated behavior of the police and the military (at Hillsborough, at Greenham Common, at the Beanfield, in Northern Ireland) and countless other things she did that resulted in years of extreme hardship and in some cases death for those who opposed her, all the while her family and inner circle enriched themselves by stealing the public silver. I challenge you to find so many people hurt by Obama’s policies to the extent that Thatcher’s policies hurt others. To be honest, and upon much consideration, it’s not the death of the woman I wanted but the death of her myth as the Iron Lady, Saviour of the Country. That still needs a few more hammer blows on the stake before it expires. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/290 "2013-04-10T11:05:41Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > While it’s not something I’d do, you’re still not grasping the amount of suffering her policies caused. I grasp it. I also realize the woman has not been in office for quite some time. > [@](#): > > Thousands of families on hunger rations, the poll tax, the war she could have prevented, the shameful and unmitigated behavior of the police and the military (at Hillsborough, at Greenham Common, at the Beanfield, in Northern Ireland) and countless other things she did that resulted in years of extreme hardship and in some cases death for those who opposed her, all the while her family and inner circle enriched themselves by stealing the public silver. And she has not been in office for quite some time. It’d be more sensible to blame the governments that followed her for not reversing those policies. > [@](#): > > I challenge you to find so many people hurt by Obama’s policies to the extent that Thatcher’s policies hurt others. Obama’s still in office. He still has a chance. 😉 Not only is Thatcher no longer in office, she’s dead. If she died a week before now, she’d’ve had just as much chance at changing those policies as she did even one day after she left office. That’s in the neighborhood of zero. Don’t like her policies? Get her out of office! She’s been out of office for years. > [@](#): > > To be honest, and upon much consideration, it’s not the death of the woman I wanted but the death of her myth as the Iron Lady, Saviour of the Country. That still needs a few more hammer blows on the stake before it expires. That’s cool. Do your best to get rid of that myth. But those who are expressing so much, and such graphic, glee in the woman’s death are pretty gruesome, are they not? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/291 "2013-04-10T13:19:08Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > But those who are expressing so much, and such graphic, glee in the woman’s death are pretty gruesome, are they not? No. The woman gleefully earned our undying hatred. If there’s a hell, she is surely in it. And rightly so. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/292 "2013-04-10T13:25:43Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > And she has not been in office for quite some time. It’d be more sensible to blame the governments that followed her for not reversing those policies. > > That’s cool. Do your best to get rid of that myth. But those who are expressing so much, and such graphic, glee in the woman’s death are pretty gruesome, are they not? It does look tasteless. Like the sole recourse of someone who has been denied the pleasure of defeating the enemy so their only satisfaction now is to piss on their grave and teach their children to curse their memory. I got no love lost for Maggie but really… Like Billy Bragg said: “don’t celebrate: organize!” If all that happens is people call her rude names but the myth and the policies remain in place, she wins. “She’s surely in Hell if there is one”? Really? That’s all you’ve got? OK, and Bobby’s in Heaven by that measure. Fat lot of good either does to those of us here on Earth (which we know does exist). Y’know, I do think about this: Except for a few former Air Controllers, hardly anyone in the USA was saying “Ronald Reagan took my job and supply-side economics let my industrial city rust away, the bastard!” when he died; to this day a large fraction of people affected by the 2008 economic crash are NOT blaming George W. Bush _ **personally** _. Somehow the Americans have been able to transfer the animosity to the bankers, corporate CEOs and Congress, with the chief executive as just the visible head of a vast complex of power. Seems there’s people who to this day feel that Thatcher did _to them_, personally, an unspeakable harm out of deliberate evil, rather than incidental to wrongheaded policies. That complex of power continued to exist with Thatcher out of office and it continued to exist in an attenuated form under Blair’s New Labor; it continued to exist in the absence of Reagan and Bush and survived in an attenuated form under Clinton AND Obama. If a terror strike or pandemic had taken out both Mag and Ron in the mid 80s or Blair, the Clintons, Cheney and Bush in the late 90s, IMO the policies “of Reagan and Thatcher” would\*\*\* not \*\*\*have been cleanly reverted and undone (the financials re-regulated, the rails re-nationalized, etc.): new frontmen would have been picked to carry the banner of the succesful political factions. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/293 "2013-04-10T13:35:57Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > …That’s cool. Do your best to get rid of that myth. But those who are expressing so much, and such graphic, glee in the woman’s death are pretty gruesome, are they not? Gruesome? Not the word I’d use. It appears that life had been a burden for her for some time–shouldn’t her deliverance be celebrated? She was in the Ritz recovering from surgery. Staying in a medical facility might have extended her life–if that’s what she wanted. Or what her children–who, alas, had no room for her–wanted. (The very latest welfare reform includes a “[bedroom tax](http://www.housing.org.uk/policy/welfare_reform/%E2%80%98under-occupation%E2%80%99_penalty.aspx)”–benefit cuts for those who have too many bedrooms. Of course, it’s not easy to find a suitably sized flat in a hurry.) Every time I read (often here) about how everybody loved Saint Ronny, I want to puke. Glad somebody’s being honest in the UK… ---
**Author:** ![DrumBum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e79b87/32.png) [@DrumBum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrumBum)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/294 "2013-04-10T14:07:53Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > No wonder she was a hero to conservatives. Wonder where she stood on Savimbi? The US support for Jonas Savimbi came from the “Better dead than Red” foreign policy makers and other US conservative groups, so I would imagine that Ms. Thatcher viewed Savimbi in the same manner. As to the original topic of this thread, while I disagreed with her policies I will extend my condolences to her family and friends. I would not wish the health issues she had over last few years on anyone. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/295 "2013-04-10T14:07:23Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Granted. But why does that merit her death and dancing on her grave, especially when she has not been involved in those policies, or even government, for years? Let’s try this: What would you think of me if I ranted and raved about, say, Obama deserving to die right now, and actually meaning it? Now, I don’t wish that on the guy although I don’t particularly like him or his policies. > > Those “dancing on Thatcher’s grave” aren’t being passionate; they’re being ghoulish. Well, I don’t see anyone ranting and raving about her death - all the responses have been measured and well-reasoned. But if someone believed that Obama was doing the country such damage that the country would be better off if he died, I’d disagree with their reasons but not their conclusions. After all, I don’t want the current British cabinet to be assassinated, but I’d be delighted if they perished in some natural disaster. See, her death has come at a time when her direct successors are fucking the country up. On the very day she died, welfare reforms came in which will reduce benefits for the poorest in the country, make life far more difficult for disabled people and probably not actually save any money. All public sector jobs have a pay freeze. And also on the same day that the highest earners got huge tax breaks, MPs got an enormous pay rise and so did the Queen. Taxpayers are going to have to pay 8 million quid for Thatcher’s funeral. Joy about Thatcher’s death and anger at the current Tories are strongly connected. The party planned for Saturday is also a protest against the current govt. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/296 "2013-04-10T14:13:17Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > Do you have a cite that the Thatcher government intentionally destroyed the UK’s manufacturing sector? It would seem like a very bad move, for an astute politician. > > If you mean “changed government policy to be less supportive of UK manufacturing”, I can go with that, to a degree (I would say “slightly less supportive”, but whatever). But no electable government sets about deliberately destroying the livelihood of its electorate. That’s crazy talk. > > The fact is, those blighted communities you talk of were f\*cked whatever government was in power. It had become too expensive to pay them the wages they expected. She and her govt closed down all the state-owned heavy industry like mines, shipyards and steelworks, and privatised almost all the other nationalised industries, many of which are now in foreign ownership. Strikers were penalised financially and beaten up physically (see: Orgreave, Battle of the Beanfield). That’s more than slightly less supportive. You can argue about whether they were right to do this, but it is a fact that they did. Similar European countries still have those industries, so there’s no reason to swallow the lie that they were doomed anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/297 "2013-04-10T14:46:01Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I grasp it. I also realize the woman has not been in office for quite some time. > > And she has not been in office for quite some time. It’d be more sensible to blame the governments that followed her for not reversing those policies. You keep saying that she has not been in office for a long time. I don’t know why you think that makes a difference. George III hasn’t been King in some time, yet you Americans make a big thing of hating him. As for reversing her policies, many of them WERE reversed. Others, what’s done is done, and you can’t change history. Consider her selling off various public-owned assets at a discount, and then using the money to finance tax cuts for the rich. It wasn’t necessarily wrong to sell them, but the way she did it was. Years later, when Labour is back in power, what do you expect them to do about it? Wouldn’t make sense to buy the stuff back again. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/298 "2013-04-10T14:52:46Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > You keep saying that she has not been in office for a long time. I don’t know why you think that makes a difference. George III hasn’t been King in some time, yet you Americans make a big thing of hating him. Do you ever know what you’re talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/299 "2013-04-10T15:10:58Z")
Oh, sorry, my mistake. You are in China, not America. I didn’t notice that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/300 "2013-04-10T15:41:12Z")
WTF does my location have to do with your stupidity? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925.md?page=16)