# When Margaret Thatcher dies, will you... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2009, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925 "2009-06-16T10:02:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/81 "2009-06-17T16:24:03Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > As she said of Reagan Magnus at his passing, as she crosses over “All the Trumpets will sound for her on the other side.” Are there trumpets in hell? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/82 "2009-06-17T16:31:52Z")
> [@](#): > > The general point still stands though, and I’m baffled as to how you think your second quoted paragraph proves otherwise. For one, the Bloomsbury Group were famous for a lot more than being accepting of homosexuality. Two, Thatcher’s simply saying that the Bloomsbury economists were influenced unduly by their rejection of Victorian social mores, and ended up throwing the baby out with the bathwater by rejecting too much of what the Victorians had to say. That’s how I read it, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/83 "2009-06-17T16:45:23Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > As she said of Reagan Magnus at his passing, as she crosses over “All the Trumpets will sound for her on the other side.” And just in time— the trombone she gave him was quite rusty. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/84 "2009-06-17T18:20:16Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > As she said of Reagan Magnus at his passing, as she crosses over “All the Trumpets will sound for her on the other side.” If you suck his dick any harder, it’s going to come off. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/85 "2009-06-17T18:26:54Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Oh, please. Their rights are no more bogus than the rights of ANYONE living ANYWHERE. With damn few exceptions, we are all living on lands our ancestors took away from some other group of people at the point of a sword. Even you, in your Manchester home, have no “right” to be there if such rights are not gained through past use of force. Sorry, give it up to the Angles, or the Celts, or whoever had it before the Celts rolled through. :rolleyes: > > If Las Islas Malvinas had a large population of Argentinian people living there, subjected to British rule, one could understand the continued interest of the Argentine government in negotiating a “return” of the islands to Argentine control. As it is, there are very few Argentinian residents. The British subjects are as much British subjects as are British subjects anywhere. Their “right” to remain a part of Britain is as legitimate as yours is. As far as I’m aware, Manchester hasn’t ever been claimed by another country, so not quite the same thing. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/86 "2009-06-17T18:30:20Z")
There is no legitimate Argentinian claim to the Falkland islands. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/87 "2009-06-17T19:34:43Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > As far as I’m aware, Manchester hasn’t ever been claimed by another country, so not quite the same thing. :rolleyes: From what I can see, Manchester isn’t claimed by anyone. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/88 "2009-06-17T19:54:31Z")
I think this is a good time to remind folk of a post I made a couple of years back, but is still just as true. The Tatcher government of 1981 was incredibly unpopular, its a fact that without some miracle, the Thatcher government would have been wiped off the face of the electoral map. However that miracle did occur, it was a war which could and should have been avoided, here is what I posted some time ago. > [@](#): > > from a couple of years ago about the background to the Falklands war. > > Given that I have made what may seem like a serious accusation, I had better back it up, which I most certainly can, but this will be quite a long post. > > Look, for at least 15 years we had trained their officer cadets, we trained their pilots, we sold them an aircraft carrier, a couple of subs, and at least two type 42 destroyers, which were as modern as anything posessed by the Royal Navy. > > On top of which we also had social contacts at literally the highest levels, since Prince Charles regularly buys his polo ponies from there, and several UK polo clubs that employ Argentinians as full time professionals, even Princess Diana was socially very familiar with the top end of Argentinian heirarchy. > > The social elite of Argentina are Anglophiles, thier idea of status is to emulate the idea of the UK image of aristocracy, which means polo ponies, mansions and tea on the lawn. > > [http://www.angloarg.dircon.co.uk/](http://www.angloarg.dircon.co.uk/) > > The result is that we have plenty of people in Argentina at levels high enough to know what their military are doing, and it should come as no surprise to you to know that we have recruited such folk to keep us aware of such things. > > Here is one cite that gives some idea of what was going on. > > [http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...55/ai\_92745794](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...55/ai_92745794) > Quote: > > Possessing a relatively small fleet of submarines, at least in comparison to the United States, Britain requires its boats to fulfill several different roles. The smaller diesel-electrics are equipped to support teams of the Special Boat Squadron (SBS), who train continuously to perfect their covert infiltration skills and develop new techniques to counter terrorists and drug smugglers. The Poseidon-armed deterrent force undertakes long patrols and generally avoids surfacing so as to maintain a credible threat to a potential aggressor. For the hunter-killers, the task has been to shadow potential targets, raise antennas in dangerous waters to collect signals intelligence, and occasionally make goodwill visits to carefully selected ports to reinforce diplomatic messages. > > Thus a courtesy invitation in Rio de Janeiro to the Argentine naval attache to come aboard and enjoy a drink had a very specific objective; it certainly made clear the wisdom of not attempting to mount any amphibious landings on disputed territories in the region. This useful exercise was executed with total success in 1977, when EMS Dreadnought participated in Operation JOURNEYMAN, now regarded as a classic of deterrence. Unfortunately there was no time to repeat it in 1982 before General Leopoldo Galtieri seized the opportunity to launch a surprise invasion of the Falklands. > > Here is another > > [http://www.btinternet.com/~warship/P...ines/early.htm](http://www.btinternet.com/~warship/P...ines/early.htm) > Quote: > In November 1977 Dreadnought was deployed to the Falkland Islands as part of a secret taskforce which included the frigates Alacrity and Phoebe and the auxiliaries Resource and Olwen. The mission- codenamed Operation Journeyman - was designed to deter Argentine aggression and prevent a feared invasion of the South Atlantic Islands. To this day there remains some debate and speculation as to weather Dreadnought was given orders to expose herself to the nearest Argentine vessel or whether he her presence was leaked in Buenos Aires by British intelligence. > [Operation Journeyman - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Journeyman) > > I happened to be serving upon HMS Pheobe when we went down to the Falklands back in 1977/78 it was Christmas/ New year time. > > The reason we were sent was simple, we had recieved intelligence reports that Argentina was gearing up to invade the Falklands. > > You cannot get around 20 to 30 thousand men plus all their equipment prepared without someone noticing, and such a thing takes many weeks and more usually months to prepare, and this took around 6 months to do so, the idea was to invade the Falklands so that the winter would arrive shortly after and prevent any attempted retaking for at least a year, we were well aware of what was going on. > > The result of that mission was that the Argentine backed down, there was no war in 1977/78. > > Our mission was deployed by the then Labour Adminstration, in the form of David Owen, the secretary of state for defence. > > Years later, David Owen was being interviewed about a party he had helped to form, the SDP, but the subject of the Falkand Islands also cropped up. > > During that interview David Owen mentions this mission, but what totally surprised me was that he also added that in fact preventative missions had been sent to the Falklands on three seperate occasions, and the result on each one was no invasion and no war. > > So what we have is intelligence reports on three occasions, that led us to take deterrrant action. > > The fourth occasion, in 1982, are you suggesting that maybe we didn’t know about the Argentine military build up ? > > Sorry I do not see this at all, and do you imagine for one teeny tiny moment that Ms Thatcher as the leader of the UK, do you imagine she would not have been informed by our security services ? > > Even if you are credulous enough to believe that, you should also note that in 1982 the Falkland invasion was preceded by an occupation of the South Sandwich islands, there was significant increase of Argentine presence there starting sometime around early February, the Falklands invasion took place some weeks later, I distinclty remeber it was in total about 7 weeks between the South Sandwich Island and the Falklands attack, that is plenty of time to send a couple of hunter killer subs into the area. > > So why, given the intelligence, the warnings, precedents from previous UK adminsitrations and the precursor events on the South Sandwich Islands, did Thatcher do nothing ? > > During this time the Conservative administration was set to be wiped of the face of the UK elecetoral map, their poll rating was at most 20% and down to 17% depending upon which polling body you choose to accept. > > This is not any excuse to do nothing, and yet nothing is what they did, the war could have been prevented, as it had been on three previous occasions, by the presence of a small flotilla of Royal Navy vessels, and deterrance is generally cheaper than outright warfare. > > The so-called ‘Falklands Factor’ was an extremely significant phenomenon in the 1983 election. **Quartz** I am well aware of the hard on you still have for Thatcher, and in terms of history, nothing can be changed, we can go around the houses again if you want, you quoting Thatcher acolytes as an authorative cite (last time you did this you laughably used Thatcher’s own memoirs as an independant cite), and me giving independant citres that you choose not to read, or that you choose to obfuscate. Fact is, Thatcher had caused an intense decline in British industry, and had it not been for the North Sea oil revenues, we would never have been able to sustain the '80’s boom which so benefitted one region of the UK at the expense of the rest of it. I can readily agree that industrial Britain had huge problems, trade unions were significant, however three oil price shocks throughout the 1970’s were much more significant as these led to inflation and hence led to industrial unrest. During this period neither Calaghan, Heath or Wilson could keep the economy stable, and its only because of those oil prices rises that North Sea oil became viable. Even so, after all these years, when the effects of the oil price hikes are acknowledged right across the world, we still fail to accept that these were the root cause of inflation in the 1970’s in the UK, yet no-one on this message board can explain to me how it is possible for oil prices to rise by 15 fold inside a decade and yet not have this cause recescession and inflation. We will never agree on Thatcher’s legacy, suggest you take a look at some of the dead towns in this part of the UK, maybe they were dinasaurs, yet we import high sulphur coal from Columbian mines whose costs are made low by the appalling safety standards and exploitation of the underground workers. Perhaps a review in the future may come to differant conclusions than either of us take to be true, my reality is that Scotland is now trying to gain control over taxation, which is just a step along the road to full independance, and that Scottish parliament is largely down to the divisions that Thatcher created when she sold 70% of the UK down the river. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/89 "2009-06-17T20:32:55Z")
> [@G. Odoreida](#): > > I want to head off a potential diversion into the quagmire of the West Lothian question and its unrewarding tributaries Damn, I was hoping for hours of first-class entertainment. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/90 "2009-06-17T20:47:03Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > **Quartz** > I am well aware of the hard on you still have for Thatcher, But, you see, I don’t. I, unlike you, am able to recognise both the good that she did and the bad and make a judgement accordingly. Your words speak for themselves, alas. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/91 "2009-06-17T21:20:00Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Margaret Thatcher is going to burn in hell for what she did to Rhodesia. After the country was briefly re-classified as a British colony, she and the British governing body she installed in Rhodesia allowed Mugabe to take over through a completely fraudulent election combined with a campaign of the most brutal terrorism against anyone who opposed ZANU. The results of this horrific crime of omission speak for themselves. This happened on her watch, and now everyone is paying the price. Jimmy Carter, the spineless worm, also did nothing. All of those people who stood by and did nothing are as culpable as Mugabe himself as far as I am concerned. More so, since they had the whole military might of the Western world at their disposal! Thatcher is a savage. Actually, that’s an insult to savages. Compared to the White only apartheid government of Rhodesia which was lead by Ian Smith? The Mugabe white land seizures are a recent thing, it was the best of a bunch of bad decisions, what were we to do? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/92 "2009-06-17T21:34:33Z")
Rhodesia under Ian Smith was not perfect but it was a damn sight better than anything that has followed since. Some people have the delusional idea that black-governed chaos is superior to white-governed stability just because the former is “majority” rule and the latter is not. The Mugabe government is not “majority” rule and it is not “black” rule. The only thing it is, is Mugabe rule. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/93 "2009-06-17T22:21:56Z")
I admit, I don’t know that much about Thatcher, but she was PM from 1979-1990, and the Conservatives got elected three times. So even though it doesn’t seem it from this thread, somebody must have liked her, at least. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2009, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/94 "2009-06-17T22:58:32Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > a) mourn? > b) celebrate? > c) care? She’s still alive?! (Over here we remember her, if at all, as something from the Reagan years. He’s dead, so why would she be alive?) ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/95 "2009-06-18T00:34:48Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > There was nothing to discuss. If you think selling out British citizens to a far right Junta just to avoid a war gives you some sort of moral standing, you’re a fucking idiot. The Falkland Island’s are British and the Falklanders overwhelmingly want them to remain British. The Falklanders weren’t really British citizens until [after the war was over](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Nationality_(Falkland_Islands)_Act_1983). > [@](#): > > Previously, under the British Nationality Act 1981, residents of the Falkland Islands were classed as British Dependent Territories citizens, unless they were also connected with the UK itself (such as through having a UK-born parent or grandparent). Such citizens were restricted in their right to enter and stay in the United Kingdom. There will be many a dry eye after she dies. Mine will be two of them! ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/96 "2009-06-18T00:53:27Z")
I won’t mourn, and I won’t celebrate, because it’s not as if her death will change anything from the past. I will, however, avoid any threads on the subject on this board, because too many Americans love the woman beyond reason. I have seriously had Americans in real life (and several people from other countries too) tell me that I’m stupid not to like Thatcher, that there was nothing to dislike about her, that she was the best leader of Britain ever, etc etc. Fuck right off. YOU weren’t here. When British people like her, I don’t mind so much; when people from other countries like her in some respects but from a well-informed POV (which pretty much precludes the weird way a few people seem to love her), I don’t mind. But I HATE being told that I should like the woman. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/97 "2009-06-18T03:22:20Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > There is no legitimate Argentinian claim to the Falkland islands. I beg to differ. Anyway, this isn’t about Malvinas (Falklands). This is about the ugly witch. Is she dead yet? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/98 "2009-06-18T03:41:03Z")
> [@Elvis\_Chimney](#): > > I grew up in Glasgow in the 80s, and my dad was a steelworker, so you could argue that I’d have plenty of cause to celebrate the demise of the evil old witch. > > The unfortunate thing though is that not only are we still surrounded by Thatcher’s legacy, but barring a miracle we’re also about to re-elect the Tories. As disillusioned as I may be with the current Labour party, I really can’t stand the thought of that shower of bastards getting back into power. > > When her black heart finally stops beating in the shrivelled husk in which it lives these days, I might raise a glass in celebration - but it’s hardly going to usher in a bright new post-Thatcher dawn. I’d like to scream “You ungrateful bastard !” . But I won’t because you haven’t got a clue what Britain was like before Thatcher entered 10 Downing Street. Britain was the “sick man of Europe”, in constant decline and a fucking joke around Europe. For many years. No one ever expected the recovery that occured under Thatcher. I’d put her in the category of one of a few top leaders of the 20th century ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/99 "2009-06-18T04:12:21Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > Britain was the “sick man of Europe”, in constant decline and a fucking joke around Europe. For many years. No, that was the Ottoman Empire. > [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > No one ever expected the recovery that occured under Thatcher. Like America’s recovery under Reagan, it would have been more or less the same, or better, under a LW leader. FTR: Fuck Maggie Thatcher and Ronald Reagan and everything they ever stood for. Up the ass without lube. I have actually done that to Reagan’s embalmed corpse and look forward to doing it to Thatcher’s. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2009, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925/100 "2009-06-18T04:39:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, that was the Ottoman Empire. You need to bone up on your history. The Ottoman empire was long gone when Thatcher took office. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-margaret-thatcher-dies-will-you/499925.md?page=6)