# When Mods mess up - It's Miller's time **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [August 1, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508 "2016-08-01T22:21:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/21 "2016-08-02T11:17:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That was pretty cleary over the line. I should have been much more restrained. My apologies to the board, and to **Derek** in particular. Thanks for that - although I would like to see that same apology in the thread itself, since the participants in that thread may or may not see this one. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/22 "2016-08-02T13:45:28Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m completely ignorant in many areas. I don’t find the identification of that to be insulting. It can be considered uncivil - but in that YMMV. > > -You have no idea what you are talking about > -you have no fucking idea what you are talking about > -you have no idea what you are fucking talking about > > The first should be okay. The others are borderline - just diferent emphasis IMO. But you wouldn’t be lecturing us on areas where you know you are completely ignorant, right? So that’s rather a moot point. Besides, whether or not you would personally feel insulted isn’t the standard here. Attack the post, not the poser is the standard. **Miller’s** post attacked the poster, and it attacked him in a very uncivil manner. We have a forum for doing that, and it’s not GD. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/23 "2016-08-02T14:12:54Z")
I don’t disagree with any of that. Separately - do you think it is or should be permissible to state that another poster is ignorant? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/24 "2016-08-02T14:30:40Z")
[\*When it’s time to relax … \*](http://tvadsongs.com/Miller_Beer_-_If_Youve_Got_The_Time.html) {audio file} ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/25 "2016-08-02T14:34:56Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I don’t disagree with any of that. Separately - do you think it is or should be permissible to state that another poster is ignorant? As I noted above, it would depend on the context. Personally, I like a high level of civil discourse to be enforced in GD (and elections). Not so concerned with the other forums. Consider these two statements: 1. My God, but you are ignorant! 2. I’m sorry, but I think you are ignorant on the subject we are discussing. The reason I say that is… \ The first one serves no purpose but to insult the poster. It offers nothing else. The second one is not only polite, but backs up the statement. Of course, the easiest way to avoid this mess is to not direct comments at posters in GD. Not saying it’s easy, just the easiest way of avoiding a hair splitting argument about the rules. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/26 "2016-08-02T14:45:24Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m completely ignorant in many areas. I don’t find the identification of that to be insulting. It can be considered uncivil - but in that YMMV. > > -You have no idea what you are talking about > -you have no fucking idea what you are talking about > -you have no idea what you are fucking talking about > > The first should be okay. The others are borderline - just diferent emphasis IMO. And then there’s the mildest version: “I love you, but don’t know what you’re talking about.” In this case, it seems that crossing the line could have been easily been avoided by not making it a blanket statement, even if they had been a bit mean about it. If you say a person made an ignorant statement, you’re not attacking them, pre se. They can always change their position, or state it more intelligently. When you say that you can always disregard their posts due to what appears to be a congenital defect, that’s insulting them. Thanks for standing up and saying so, **Miller**. Now can someone with authority note him or warn him or call his dog ugly before people start some really good conspiracy theories? Who knows, maybe the DoS or whatever that’s making the site slow will abate as a collateral effect. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/27 "2016-08-02T14:49:56Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I don’t disagree with any of that. Separately - do you think it is or should be permissible to state that another poster is ignorant? I got an immediate warning for personal insults, not a note, when I said: > [@So - why does US spurn Kurds?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-why-does-us-spurn-kurds/724016/66): > > Ralph124c clearly has no clue what he is talking about so you probably shouldn’t spend too much of your debating efforts on his account. I think Miller went a little past that line. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/28 "2016-08-02T15:01:30Z")
So was Miller never modded for his post or was it the super-secret mod-modding Ed discussed that we’ll never know about? ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/29 "2016-08-02T15:12:50Z")
As Ed said, he wants all dealings between us and him to be private. He will not be publicly rebuking mods. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/30 "2016-08-02T15:24:14Z")
General reply to all - fair enough. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/31 "2016-08-02T15:50:15Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > As Ed said, he wants all dealings between us and him to be private. He will not be publicly rebuking mods. Absent **Miller** ’s mea culpa, how would we have known that this was something we should report mods for in future? As well, without access to the rebuking, how will we know that in this case **Miller** was treated in a justly similar way to how a poster would have been if they had broken a rule? Also, “dealings between us and him” seems to be an odd way to characterize a situation where a mod breaks a public board rule as a poster. It’s already not a private matter. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/32 "2016-08-02T16:11:05Z")
Ed’s post in its entirety. I was basically repeating point 3. > [@When mods mess up](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up/760182/1): > > In light of the controversy in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=798302), there appears to be uncertainty about what’s supposed to happen when an SDMB moderator violates the board’s rules. The following is intended to clarify things: > > 1. The mods are expected to abide by SDMB rules just like all other members. We also have internal staff rules, policies and procedures. These aren’t for general distribution but they’re what you’d expect. Suffice it to say mods aren’t supposed to use their mod powers to give themselves special treatment. No harm was meant in the present case but it looked unfair and we want to avoid that. > > 2. It’s not the responsibility of one mod to chastise another. When a mod violates the rules or otherwise behaves problematically, that’s a matter for me to deal with as site administrator. I’m supposed to be alerted promptly when issues of this kind arise. There was a brief delay in the present case. > > 3. Dealings between the mods and me are a private matter. They’re volunteers and I’m not about to rebuke them in public. That’s not to say nothing happens when mistakes are made. Sometimes after a controversy I have discussions with the mods, either individually or as a group, to clarify policies and procedures. Sometimes after one of these discussions I post a note to clear the air and make sure all SDMB members understand how things are supposed to work. This is such a note. > > Considerable care goes into the selection of mods - I’m continually impressed with their diligence, sound judgment and most of all their patience and good humor under trying conditions. They make this board what it is and I’m grateful for their efforts. Everybody messes up once in a while; we learn from the experience and move on. Having gone over this with the mods, I’m confident that’s the case here. We are not publicly accountable. We are accountable to Ed. He hires us, fires us, disciplines us in any way that he sees fit. You (or anyone else on the SDMB) do not get oversight on that process. This doesn’t mean that you have no input at all. Like I said, if there’s an issue, feel free to start an ATMB thread about it, and anyone should feel free to contribute to such ATMB discussions. As TubaDiva used to say though, nowhere in the registration agreement does it say that you get to beat the mods like a stubborn mule. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/33 "2016-08-02T16:14:34Z")
I’m just waiting for the mods Tequila, Vodka, or Everclear to mess up. That’s gonna be some epic stuff right there. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/34 "2016-08-02T16:25:34Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > As TubaDiva used to say though, nowhere in the registration agreement does it say that you get to beat the mods like a stubborn mule. You would probably be better off not emulating the martyr aspects of TubaDiva’s style. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/35 "2016-08-02T16:30:02Z")
I never realized TubaDiva could be so verbose. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/36 "2016-08-02T16:36:12Z")
is tubadiva still on the board ? last I seen was her selling some sdmb momentos in the marketplace and her tone was sort of “I’m done with this place so its for sale…” and as for miller I think its just a matter of losing patience with an apparently idiotic teenage troll that likes to start crap only reason why hes not banned that I can see is hes polite ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/37 "2016-08-02T16:52:25Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > Ed’s post in its entirety. I was basically repeating point 3. > > We are not publicly accountable. We are accountable to Ed. He hires us, fires us, disciplines us in any way that he sees fit. You (or anyone else on the SDMB) do not get oversight on that process. > > This doesn’t mean that you have no input at all. Like I said, if there’s an issue, feel free to start an ATMB thread about it, and anyone should feel free to contribute to such ATMB discussions. > > As TubaDiva used to say though, nowhere in the registration agreement does it say that you get to beat the mods like a stubborn mule. So - while I understand this stance in the case of TomDebs usage of ‘edit’ well past normal users time (which is a Moderator ONLY privelege) - I do not get this when it comes to moderation of the moderator when acting as a normal poster - maybe a ‘warning’ would not be issued - but at the same time - a ‘note’ telling the individual that such actions would get any other poster warned, etc - in the thread in question - is, IMHO - required - else other readers of the thread will a) see no note/warning and take that as a sign the gloves are off b) wonder why they get warned for the exact same behaviour elsewhere. There is a HUGE difference between abusing the ‘powers of the moderator’ and not telling the poster (who happens to be a moderator, just not acting as one in this case) to ‘dial it back down, as a mod - you should know better’ to keep the thread ‘moderated’. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/38 "2016-08-02T16:53:53Z")
I’m fine with any chastising of mods being done by Ed behind the scenes. I don’t want my boss tearing me a new one in front of customers, and I’ll never do that to my staff. But I think it’s still important that regular posters are made aware of when a mod’s post was out of line - not so we can pile on, but so we can understand what is allowed and what is worthy of moderation. Perhaps the mods can voluntarily post an apology or acknowledgement themselves in the thread where the infraction occurred - like **Miller** did here, but in the original thread instead so everyone sees it. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/39 "2016-08-02T17:22:43Z")
> [@simster](#): > > So - while I understand this stance in the case of TomDebs usage of ‘edit’ well past normal users time (which is a Moderator ONLY privelege) - I do not get this when it comes to moderation of the moderator when acting as a normal poster - maybe a ‘warning’ would not be issued - but at the same time - a ‘note’ telling the individual that such actions would get any other poster warned, etc - in the thread in question - is, IMHO - required - else other readers of the thread will > > a) see no note/warning and take that as a sign the gloves are off > b) wonder why they get warned for the exact same behaviour elsewhere. > > There is a HUGE difference between abusing the ‘powers of the moderator’ and not telling the poster (who happens to be a moderator, just not acting as one in this case) to ‘dial it back down, as a mod - you should know better’ to keep the thread ‘moderated’. Ed made it clear that we are not to moderate other moderator’s posts, even if they are posting as a poster and not as a moderator. Like I said, feel free to discuss it in an ATMB thread, and you can post that it is being discussed in ATMB in the thread where it occurred if you want folks in that discussion to know that it’s an issue, but you shouldn’t discuss the issue in the thread where it happened. Keep the discussion in ATMB where it belongs. And again, we are not publicly accountable. We are accountable to Ed. We do not receive the same warnings that regular users do. We cannot warn each other or moderate each other’s posts. For those of you who want us to receive the same warnings that you do, sorry, but that’s not going to happen. Ed gave us clear instructions not to warn or note each other, even when we were acting as posters and not as moderators. Whether you get it or not is irrelevant. That’s the rules that we have been given and are expected to follow. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508/40 "2016-08-02T17:34:07Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > We are not publicly accountable. We are accountable to Ed. He hires us, fires us, disciplines us in any way that he sees fit. You (or anyone else on the SDMB) do not get oversight on that process. You’re actually wrong on that point. Mods are publicly accountable, just to a court of public opinion. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that general poster opinion is going to be without bias or flaw - but that’s the point. As it stands, we’re left to our own imaginings as to what **Ed** ’s reaction to a rulebreaking mod is. We don’t know whether it’s too lenient. We don’t know whether it’s too harsh. Without asking, we don’t know it’s happened at all, and silence in response to a rulebreaking Mod means there’s less reason to ask. A hidden process invites speculation. If you’re convinced that some people want to “beat the mods like a stubborn mule”, or that “some of you like to believe that we mods are teh evil”, then a concealed process just adds more flame to that fire. > [@](#): > > As **TubaDiva** used to say though, nowhere in the registration agreement does it say that you get to beat the mods like a stubborn mule. It does say that posters have rules they have to follow, though. I don’t believe speaking so pejoratively of “we’d like to know what happens to rulebreaking mods” does your argument, or yourself, any favours. And resorting to language like that doesn’t really engender trust in me that a behind-the-scenes process is going to go swimmingly. If that’s how you treat good-natured disagreement in _public_… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-mods-mess-up-its-millers-time/761508.md?page=3)