# When Safety Measures Kill You (5 Dead in Helicopter Crash in New York City) **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 12, 2018, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462 "2018-03-12T23:08:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/41 "2018-03-17T02:31:28Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > No, no. In the article in the OP, a photographer named Vincent Laforet is quoted. That’s who I was referring to. > > ETA: Wait, it doesn’t appear to be in that article anymore. So it must have been edited. (No, it hasn’t. See below). > > ETA2: OK, maybe I’m going crazy. I must have my NYTimes links mixed up. [This is the one I was thinking of](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/nyregion/helicopter-crash-doors-off-harness.html). I must have had both open in the browser when I commented and lost track. Um, your former roommate is Vincent LaForet? He’s “a photographer” like Banksy is “a graffiti artist.” That’s hyperbole, but only by a little. I’m sure you’re aware of this, but other people in the thread might not be. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/42 "2018-03-17T03:20:16Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/nyregion/helicopter-crash-nyc.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/12/nyregion/helicopter-crash-nyc.html) > > Unlike the passengers the pilot wasn’t strapped in with this type harness and was able to escape. > > So inventive Dopers what is the solution? You have a design for a quick release harness which won’t be unlatched accidentally? the solution was pretty simple. unbuckle before landing and crack the doors open so they don’t jam. The craft was under control the entire time of descent. I also didn’t see a need to land in the middle of the river. Land closer to shore. preferably near boats. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/43 "2018-03-17T04:28:04Z")
You don’t need to crack the doors open as they had already been removed. The harnesses were there so passengers dangling their feet out the open doors while taking pictures wouldn’t fall out. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/44 "2018-03-17T06:39:53Z")
You also have to understand that even if say two of those people were calm and collected enough to potentially get out even in an emergency. In the end it might not matter when you are wedged in a tight area where everybody else is panicking. Just imagine all the kicking and flailing limbs, people grabbing onto every object within reach. It’s easy to imagine how a couple people panicking get everyone else killed. When I was a kid I went to an airshow and took a ride on a tiny doorless helicopter with some Vietnam Veteran pilot. I didn’t cry or freak out or anything but it made me never want to ride in a helicopter again. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/45 "2018-03-17T10:26:26Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > Um, your former roommate is Vincent LaForet? He’s “a photographer” like Banksy is “a graffiti artist.” That’s hyperbole, but only by a little. I’m sure you’re aware of this, but other people in the thread might not be. I sure have no clue. Will go look around. Glad to see flights restricted while this tragic mishegas is reviewed. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/46 "2018-03-17T14:22:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the solution was pretty simple. unbuckle before landing and crack the doors open so they don’t jam. The craft was under control the entire time of descent. > > I also didn’t see a need to land in the middle of the river. Land closer to shore. preferably near boats. They were clipped in by staff to a hook between their shoulder blades. Unless one can touch their palms behind your back (not just your fingertips) one has no chance of unclipping themselves. Others have stated that the fact / location of a knife in the harness was not pointed out to them. Even if it was, trying to cut something behind your back is not the easiest of tasks. Can’t crack open what isn’t there (doors). In fact the doors off probably made the situation worse as it allowed the cabin to fill up with water that much faster. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/47 "2018-03-19T22:40:22Z")
[The harnesses used by FlyNYON bear an uncanny resemblance to a $50 product sold at Home Depot, which is marketed to window washers and construction workers but not to the aviation industry](https://nypost.com/2018/03/19/helicopter-had-off-the-shelf-unapproved-harnesses-report/), helicopter magazine [Vertical](https://www.verticalmag.com/news/faa-targets-flynyon-company-behind-craze-doors-off-flights/) notes. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/48 "2018-03-19T22:50:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Haven’t read the thread, other than to search ‘doors’. The reporter seems aghast that people would be allowed on a helicopter _without doos!_ OMG! :eek: I almost never flew with doors on. For one thing, the helicopters I rented are small. For another, it gets hot in L.A. And of course, the view is better. When we went on our honeymoon in Kauai, I specifically chose a charter helicopter company that flew 500s with the doors off. It’s the only way to fly! You can look down without leaning out in the back seats. Of course they have seatbelts, with the standard release. [I think that is it in the back](http://www.airliners.net/photo/Inter-Island-Helicopters/McDonnell-Douglas-MD-530F-369F/818924). Can’t see the N number. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/49 "2018-03-19T23:19:07Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > A $30 investment in three emergency strap cutters could have saved everyone’s life in that helicopter. > [https://bradleyssurplus.com/strap-cutter-gerber-tool-1.html?gdffi=842032db731040c68c754bca3e977ac9&gdfms=854EDA96DA99443A9808E636E4129303&gclid=Cj0KCQjwkKPVBRDtARIsAA2CG6Fp2AXg94CgwSXCdPfMB\_831wlWKqY15pzA1au6NLr-5pqCHxs1yCwaAkmaEALw\_wcB](https://bradleyssurplus.com/strap-cutter-gerber-tool-1.html?gdffi=842032db731040c68c754bca3e977ac9&gdfms=854EDA96DA99443A9808E636E4129303&gclid=Cj0KCQjwkKPVBRDtARIsAA2CG6Fp2AXg94CgwSXCdPfMB_831wlWKqY15pzA1au6NLr-5pqCHxs1yCwaAkmaEALw_wcB) > > I certainly hope these tools are put in every plane and helicopter. Immediately! Like, get off your lazy, stupid ass and go buy them, right now! Today! > > It boogles the mind a tragedy had to happen before someone had enough sense to realize strap cutters are required equipment in every car, boat, plane abd helicopter. > > I have a glass breaker/strap cutter tool in all my personal vehicles. > [@](#): > > {…} FlyNYON had attached a knife to the shoulder strap, which was supposed to allow you to cut yourself out in case of emergency. {…}[RIGHT][CITE](https://nypost.com/2018/03/19/helicopter-had-off-the-shelf-unapproved-harnesses-report/)[/RIGHT] CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2018, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/50 "2018-03-19T23:31:28Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > When we went on our honeymoon in Kauai, I specifically chose a charter helicopter company that flew 500s with the doors off. It’s the only way to fly! You can look down without leaning out in the back seats. > > Of course they have seatbelts, with the standard release. > > [I think that is it in the back](http://www.airliners.net/photo/Inter-Island-Helicopters/McDonnell-Douglas-MD-530F-369F/818924). Can’t see the N number. Kauai is awesome. Good time for me to brag, I was in the military in Hawaii, so had literally hundreds of “helicopter tours.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/51 "2018-03-20T00:14:17Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > They were clipped in by staff to a hook between their shoulder blades. Unless one can touch their palms behind your back (not just your fingertips) one has no chance of unclipping themselves. Others have stated that the fact / location of a knife in the harness was not pointed out to them. Even if it was, trying to cut something behind your back is not the easiest of tasks. > > Can’t crack open what isn’t there (doors). In fact the doors off probably made the situation worse as it allowed the cabin to fill up with water that much faster. Then it’s the pilot’s responsibility to instruct them to cut the belts on the way down. This isn’t fucking rocket science. Passengers have to be able to extricate themselves. As for the door being open, how do you think the pilot got out? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/52 "2018-03-20T01:25:36Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > Um, your former roommate is Vincent LaForet? He’s “a photographer” like Banksy is “a graffiti artist.” That’s hyperbole, but only by a little. I’m sure you’re aware of this, but other people in the thread might not be. Yes, I know he is well-known in some communities, but he’s not quite a household name. I’m a professional photographer and there’s people in my industry who don’t know who he is, so it depends on what part of the industry you’re in and what type of photography you follow. That said, the people who do know who he is do seem to consider him a “rock star.” I find this really weird, as, yes, he was my roommate for a number of years (we were good friends in college and still keep in close touch. We attended each other’s weddings, that sort of thing.) That said, even back then it was more-than-clear that he was ultra talented and poised to make an impact in photography (and videography, moreso, for the past decade, or so, when the first Canon 5D was released.) ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/53 "2018-03-20T04:21:55Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Unlike the passengers the pilot wasn’t strapped in with this type harness and was able to escape. > [@Magiver](#): > > This isn’t fucking rocket science. Passengers have to be able to extricate themselves. As for the door being open, how do you think the pilot got out? You’re right, it’s not rocket science; it’s basic reading comprehension. Did you read the relevant line in the OP (quoted again for you, above). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/54 "2018-03-20T04:26:53Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > You’re right, it’s not rocket science; it’s basic reading comprehension. Did you read the relevant line in the OP (quoted again for you, above). What part didn’t you understand with what I said? They had the means to cut the belts and the pilot was responsible for instructing them. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/55 "2018-03-20T06:55:20Z")
No stewardess on the flight so the pilot or ground crew hooking them up should tell them before the flight what to do. I don’t know if that was done. Using a rig that the passengers can not easily do themselves is just bad all around IMO. The pilot does not talk to them while the helio is in auto rotation especially from low altitude. He has one job that comes first, fly the damn plane as far into the crash as he can. I have flown many photographers with the door off the old C-180, even in February in Oklahoma. Best photo guy around was an old time WWII photo guy from the Marines. He always wanted to take the seat belt totally off. My boss said he had to keep it at least around him so he would make it as long as it would go. He then could still get one foot on the wheel ( I had to be sure & hold the brakes ) so he could get vertical shots which still took some really steep banks. The kicker was that he still used an old Speed Graphic 1940’s style camera until he finally retired. We got some great stuff because he was fearless and I was too stupid to know any better so I just did my job of putting the plane where he wanted to be. ---
**Author:** ![Caneknife](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Caneknife](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caneknife)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/56 "2018-03-20T11:58:04Z")
My wife and I and 2 young daughters flew over NY with this company mid January, i paid for doors off but since it was freezing cold that day they kept doors on, we were strictly told we were not allowed to take any bags with us , cameras only, so I don’t understand the bag reportedly hitting the fuel cut off switch. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2018, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/57 "2018-03-20T12:48:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They had the means to cut the belts and the pilot was responsible for instructing them. Unless I missed something, we don’t know whether the passengers were instructed on how to cut or otherwise free themselves from the harness. But even if they were so instructed, they weren’t Navy SEALS who spent weeks practicing how to untie themselves after being thrown in the deep end of a diving pool with weights on, developing the muscle memory that would let them carry out these tasks while under real duress. They were newbie passengers, and they hit the water with a gallon of adrenaline having already been dumped in their bloodstream during the descent, and then they got suddenly immersed upside-down in ice water. As Tyson said, “everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.” Well, these people got punched in the mouth. Disoriented, blind, cold-shocked, adrenaline-addled, and panicked, and they’re supposed to use the rational thinking part of their brain to remember where the cutter is (after having been told exactly once), reach for it correctly, and use it to slice through their harness? Slim odds. I sat in a friend’s track car once. The driver’s seat had been fitted with a four-point harness with a stupid-simple quick-release: one twist of the central latch mechanism, and all the webs separate from it. Such a harness might have enabled these passengers to escape. OTOH, it would also make it more likely for a fidgety passenger to accidentally release it in mid-flight and fall out of the heli. So what to do? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/58 "2018-03-27T04:08:51Z")
A report of an interview with the pilot; he said it was a passenger’s harness which tripped the fuel cut-off: > **[Passenger’s Harness May Have Tripped Switch in Deadly Helicopter Crash...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/nyregion/east-river-helicopter-crash-pilot-interview.html)** > > The pilot, who was the only survivor of the crash, said that an emergency fuel shut-off had been tripped and that the harness of a passenger was underneath the lever. He could have landed in Central Park but thought there were too many people there. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2018, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/59 "2018-03-27T16:37:31Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > A report of an interview with the pilot; he said it was a passenger’s harness which tripped the fuel cut-off: > [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/nyregion/east-river-helicopter-crash-pilot-interview.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/26/nyregion/east-river-helicopter-crash-pilot-interview.html) > > He could have landed in Central Park but thought there were too many people there. That’s a nasty cleft to be caught in: put down in the water and risk drowning panicked passengers; put down in the park and risk squashing or decapitating half a dozen park-goers. But having the fuel cut-off and a passenger harness in proximity is just a bad design decision. In a sane world, it shouldn’t be possible for anyone to accidentally trigger something like that. Shouldn’t it have been [molly-guarded](http://www.atakel.com/urun/apem-switch-guard/EN/)? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462/60 "2018-03-28T00:33:00Z")
I can’t imagine anybody being so dense that a helicopter descending on them is not a sufficient reason to relocate to a less squishy place. Even if you’re deaf and can’t hear the rotors you’d feel the air and shock wave they generate. If they pilot had the option to land in Central park they he chose poorly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-safety-measures-kill-you-5-dead-in-helicopter-crash-in-new-york-city/810462.md?page=4)