# When Sam arrived in the West, was Frodo still alive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 16, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499 "2008-05-16T00:24:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/1 "2008-05-16T00:24:21Z")
The most casual Tolkien fans (i.e., those who have only seen the Jackson movies\*) know that, a few years after the Ringwar, Frodo Baggins was allowed to go to the Undying Lands (Wikipedia says Valinor, but I think Tol Eressëa more likely). This was so that he might find healing from the physical and psychic wounds he had suffered on his quest. Less casual fans (those who have read the appendices of Lord of the Rings) know that Frodo’s beloved servant and companion, Samwise Gamgee, was also allowed to go to the West, after his children were grown and his wife had died. Reasonably serious fans (those who had braved the Silmarillion) know that the Undying Lands were so named because they were the home of the Deathless Ainur and Eldar, not because of any innate virtue of their own, and that at least one mortal --Ar-Pharazôn, last king of Numenor–was told that going there would hasten his death, not delay it, as he would be like a moth coming to close to a flame. Ar-Pharazôn, though, was told this would happen if he came to Aman without permission, which was not Frodo’s case. And, as I wrote above, I’m not sure that Frodo went to the mainland anyway. So I ask you, Dopers: what did Sam find when he went over the Sea to be with his beloved master? A healed and happy Frodo, or a grave? Or–to put the question a different way–what do you think Professor Tolkien would say Sam found? Personally, I go with a grave. A well-kept, much venerated grave, right beside the only slightly-less honored grave of his uncle Bilbo. Professor Tolkien was sometimes sentimental, but I think he would have been consistent here, even though it requires us to imagine Sam’s grief-stricken face as he sees Frodo’s grave and wonders why he left his children behind. But that’s just me. What do you guys think, and why? (Posters who include the phrase “Gift of Men” in their answer get a piece of pie.) \*Okay, I guess the MOST casual fans have only seen the cartoons. Work with me here. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/2 "2008-05-16T01:16:08Z")
I don’t believe JRRT ever speculated on this. At least not in his discovered writings. It’s a toss-up. Frodo would have been 114 years old when Sam arrived. Pretty old, but not a record, for a hobbit. Bilbo was living at 131 when he sailed. My guess: Frodo lived to see Sam again. Why? Cuz I want it to be that way. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/3 "2008-05-16T04:06:19Z")
I’ll second QTM the master’s speculation - cuz I want it to be that way to. (I’m still wondering how Gimli was welcomed where he arrived there with Legolas) ---
**Author:** ![Ducktail](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@Ducktail](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ducktail)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/4 "2008-05-16T04:11:11Z")
Although I’ve not picked up the Silmarillion or Lost Tales in a few years, I inherited a Tolkien obsession from my father, who seemed to be reading the history of Middle-earth in a continuous cycle throughout about a decade of my childhood. The consensus in our family was always that Frodo was still alive when Sam made it to the Undying Lands; we always assumed that the main purpose of him getting to go was to be reunited with Frodo. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/5 "2008-05-16T09:53:27Z")
Never Mind … just read QTM’s post. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/6 "2008-05-16T12:16:38Z")
I’m surprised at how distressing I find the idea of Sam getting of the boat only to find a grave. It seems rather cruel to me. Of _course_ Frodo was still alive, otherwise what would be the point? [sub] **Qadgop** agrees with me! If he says it, it must be true!!![/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Septima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Septima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Septima)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/7 "2008-05-16T12:28:15Z")
I don’t have the books on hand, so I’ll accept QtM’s count. And if Frodo was only 114 by that point, there is no reason he should _not_ be alive. He was a perfectly healthy hobbit from a long-lived family before he was wounded. If he was completely healed in the undying lands, I’d imagine his natural lifespan to be closer to 130-40. So even if he lost a decade or two by living there, he might still be allive at 114. Hell, _humans_ often live that long. I’d be surprised if hobbits didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/8 "2008-05-16T12:52:15Z")
Ah, but wasn’t Sam’s journey West not to see Frodo, but to be healed of the hurt of the Ring? And didn’t the Ban of the Valar only apply to Man anyway? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/9 "2008-05-16T14:19:10Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] I don’t believe JRRT ever speculated on this. At least not in his discovered writings. It’s a toss-up. Frodo would have been 114 years old when Sam arrived. Pretty old, but not a record, for a hobbit. Bilbo was living at 131 when he sailed. My guess: Frodo lived to see Sam again. Why? Cuz I want it to be that way. [/QUOTE] I would have to go digging, but I believe in Letters, Tolkien speculated that Frodo and Bilbo were not given everlasting life, but would have received longer and pain free life. Whether that odd bit of memory is accurate or not, I believe it is almost certain that Frodo was there to greet Samwise and later Legolas and Gimli. I think Bilbo would not have been. Frodo also hinted that Samwise would meet him again, so he would not be torn between his family and the Shire and his desire to remain with Frodo. > [@RotK](#): > > ``` > 'Where are you going, Master?' cried Sam, though at last he understood > > ``` > > what was happening. > ‘To the Havens, Sam,’ said Frodo. > ‘And I can’t come.’ > ‘No, Sam. Not yet anyway, not further than the Havens. Though you too > were a Ring-bearer, if only for a little while. Your time may come. Do not > be too sad, Sam. You cannot be always torn in two. You will have to be one > and whole, for many years. You have so much to enjoy and to be, and to do.’ > ‘But,’ said Sam, and tears started in his eyes, ‘I thought you were > going to enjoy the Shire, too. for years and years, after all you have > done.’ This needs to be checked as I found it online but … \*In letter 154 Tolkien speaks of those privileged to travel across the Sea like the Elves “out of time and history, never to return.” “Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and ‘servant’ of Galadriel. I have said nothing about it in this book, but the mythical idea underlying is that for mortals, since their ‘kind’ cannot be changed for ever, this is strictly only a temporary reward: a healing and redress of suffering. They cannot abide for ever, and though they cannot return to mortal earth, they can and will ‘die’–of free will, and leave the world.” Somewhere else I believe he said that Frodo after long years chose the time of his own death as he was permitted to do.\* I found some more on [Frodo Baggins - Tuckborough](http://www.tuckborough.net/frodo.html) > [@](#): > > Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over the Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to ‘pass away’: no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of ‘Arda Unmarred’, the Earth unspoiled by evil. > The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien: Letter #246 > As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer ‘immortality’ upon them. Their sojourn was a ‘purgatory’, but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing. > The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien: Letter #325 Jim (BTW: there is absolutely no reason to believe the Ban player into this at all, Bilbo, Frodo, Sam & Gimli would all have been invited guests. I love the idea of Gimli meeting Aüle) ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/10 "2008-05-16T14:24:02Z")
> [@](#): > > As for Frodo or other mortals … Their sojourn was a ‘purgatory’, but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away ( **die at their own desire and of free will** ) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing. > The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien: Letter #325 Ah HA! Frodo would never die of his own free will before Sam showed up. No way no how. Thanks, **What Exit?**! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/11 "2008-05-17T02:33:18Z")
Nice work, Jim. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/12 "2008-05-17T02:49:11Z")
The problem with Jim’s post is that I have no counter argument. Damn it! :: releases swarm of radioactive bees in \*\*What Exit’\*\*s general direction :: ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/13 "2008-05-17T04:16:27Z")
[QUOTE=Qadgop the Mercotan] Nice work, Jim. [/QUOTE] Thanks, as some one who actually had the nickname of Frodo in the Navy\*, I think I took an extra interest in any odd details about him. I used to know way too much of the genealogy charts too. [QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] The problem with Jim’s post is that I have no counter argument. Damn it! :: releases swarm of radioactive bees in \*\*What Exit’\*\*s general direction :: [/QUOTE] Well you started by mentioning “the most casual Tolkien fans” and I guess I am the second least casual fan of Middle-Earth on the dope after only \*\*QtM \*\* of course. I had to hold to a high standard. So how do you consider those of us that read through the Histories of Middle-Earth? Perhaps the Peredhel (s) or Perelda (q) would be a fitting title? Jim (Frodo Lives!) - The Filipinos took to calling me that as I was prone to writing “Frodo Lives” on logs and other places. I often acted as a translator for those with tougher accents and the American sailors that just could not pick out what they were saying. This minor skill helped me in my first programming job where I would go to lunch every day with a guy from China, a guy from the Philippines and a guy from Russia. I was the only one that always understood everyone and I would end up translating. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/14 "2008-05-17T19:52:30Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] I love the idea of Gimli meeting Aüle) [/QUOTE] Aulë would welcome Gimli for sure and I could see the Noldor being fond of him, what with their long sojourn in Middle Earth, their love of craft and all. Celebrimbor himself, the crafter of the three rings, engraved Durin’s Door to Moria after all. The others, not so much, especially when he gets grumpy. Thank you for the Tuckborough link, Jim. It has been bookmarked in my Tolkien folder. [QUOTE=What Exit?] I would go to lunch every day with a guy from China, a guy from the Philippines and a guy from Russia. I was the only one that always understood everyone and I would end up translating. [/quote] Ah, yes. The Asian filter. I used to have one but it has gotten rusty with disuse. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/15 "2008-05-18T05:05:38Z")
Well screw me for a dabbler; I thought “the west” was a metaphor for heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/16 "2008-05-18T14:16:52Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] Well you started by mentioning “the most casual Tolkien fans” and I guess I am the second least casual fan of Middle-Earth on the dope after only \*\*QtM \*\* of course. I had to hold to a high standard. So how do you consider those of us that read through the Histories of Middle-Earth? Perhaps the Peredhel (s) or Perelda (q) would be a fitting title? Jim (Frodo Lives!) [/quote] Damn it! You’re supposed to be running away from millions of bees! ::executes bee wrangler:: My take on HOME is that anyone who has read and enjoyed the Silmarillion is likely to read & enjoy those, subject only to time and money; thus they do not represent added geekiness. Peredhel would be those who have BOUGHT all of those, and Letters as well. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/17 "2008-05-18T14:58:51Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] Damn it! You’re supposed to be running away from millions of bees! ::executes bee wrangler:: My take on HOME is that anyone who has read and enjoyed the Silmarillion is likely to read & enjoy those, subject only to time and money; thus they do not represent added geekiness. Peredhel would be those who have BOUGHT all of those, and Letters as well. [/QUOTE] Guilty as charged. I even have the [Road Goes Ever On](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Road_Goes_Ever_On), the Atlas of Middle Earth, a copy of The Oliphant, Letters from Father Christmas and much more including obscure books about the Lord of the Rings written back in the 60s. However I find the Silmarillion a much better read then HOMES. Unfinished Tales is great. I have committed much of that to odd patches of my memory. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/18 "2008-05-18T15:37:45Z")
[QUOTE=Cisco] Well screw me for a dabbler; I thought “the west” was a metaphor for heaven. [/QUOTE] Well, in a manner of speaking, but Olympus might be closer - it was a physical location formerly part of the material world, and only ceased to be so upon the downfall of Numenor, when to avert any further trespass the Valar asked Eru to remove it forever from the physical plane. The world was formerly flat; afterwards, it was round, and Valinor could not be reached by conventional travel, but Elves were allowed to build ships that could sail there on a one-way trip, and eventually most of them did. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/19 "2008-05-18T19:29:17Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] I find the Silmarillion a much better read then HOMES. Unfinished Tales is great. I have committed much of that to odd patches of my memory. Jim [/QUOTE] Well, I’m slogging thru HOTH (History of The Hobbit) now. Heavy going, frankly. Fascinating rare gold nuggets of info gleaned from amidst the dross of a lot of ordinary rubble. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499/20 "2008-05-18T19:32:18Z")
QTM - Have you also perused the Annotated Hobbit? It’s quite thorough, and was published before the History of the Hobbit. wondering how you like it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-sam-arrived-in-the-west-was-frodo-still-alive/449499.md?page=2)