# When should a person have the right to drive thru a crowd of demonstrators? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732 "2018-04-03T17:20:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/101 "2018-04-04T00:50:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > … So far I don’t think being inconvenienced is sufficient reason to run them over. Neither do I. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If the protestors put themselves in a dangerous position like blocking a freeway at night and the first person coming along doesn’t see them in time and hits someone I presume that will be taken into account at trial. I would certainly hope so. That dumb bitch sued UCSD for allowing her to enter the freeway. > [@](#): > > [The complaint additionally claims that UCSD is liable for Flores’ injuries because it allowed the protesters to enter the freeway …](http://ucsdguardian.org/2017/11/15/student-hit-by-car-after-entering-freeway-during-election-night-protests-sues-ucsd/) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/102 "2018-04-04T00:52:23Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > They do every time the blockade a freeway. The Kent v. Dulles case established that travel is a right that you cannot be deprived of without 5th amendment due process protections. Therefore they’re infringing on the right of myself and every other innocent person in the city trying to travel that particular freeway. If I block your car from going forward, I am not violating your constitutional rights because the constitution does not protect you from me, it protects you and me from the government. When my rights collide with your rights, we try to resolve the conflict somehow, or we beat each other up. Like, if I need to walk up this narrow road to get home, and you want to drive up it, we have to work something out, because neither one of us has a right of priority over the other. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/103 "2018-04-04T00:52:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > In Texas you can [shoot people in the back because they are stealing a neighbor’s TV.](http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=5278638&page=1) Yes, you probably shouldn’t steal TVs in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/104 "2018-04-04T00:53:35Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > If a person’s so out-of-control and shows so little respect for other humans, society and it’s laws by blockading the street and smashing up your car, is it much of a leap to assume they’ll smash you up with their deadly weapons once the get through the windows? Not if I’m on your jury. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/105 "2018-04-04T01:05:16Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Not if I’m on your jury. Jury nullification for lynching has a long and respectable tradition behind it, that’s certainly true. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/106 "2018-04-04T01:07:27Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > And is someone else justified in killing the person who is about to kill the driver who is trying to get away from the murderous leftist who is assaulting your car? Assuming that the “someone else” wasn’t breaking any laws, potentially yes, although I personally wouldn’t take the risk of third-party self-defense in that situation unless the driver was a close friend or family member. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/107 "2018-04-04T01:07:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Yes, you probably shouldn’t steal TVs in Texas. It is weird that Texas state law would define a theft of under $1500 as a misdemeanor subject to up to a year in prison and up to a $4000 fine but it is ok with its citizens being judge, jury and executioner and meting out the death penalty for that very same crime. These two things do not square well. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/108 "2018-04-04T01:09:52Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > What part of this is about the fucking Tea Party? Are they the gold standard of protesting or something? My impression is that they were pretty close. > [@Chimera](#): > > Because they can and did shut down freeways any number of times. … Which one(s)? When? Cite? (I’m genuinely unaware of this having happened. If it did, in fact, I’d love to know some details.) ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/109 "2018-04-04T01:11:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I notice you don’t offer any evidence to support any of this. > > What do I think? I think you’re letting ideology color how you judge the behavior of people demonstrating in public. Ten thousand people demonstrate and a hundred people in the crowd commit some crimes. If you support the cause, it was a peaceful demonstration. If you oppose the cause, it was a riot. If 100 people in the crowd of tens of thousands committed some (violent) crimes, I would not call it a peaceful protest, regardless of the reason for the protest. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/110 "2018-04-04T01:12:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That sounds reasonable to me. So why do we need new laws? Looks to me like some people are trying to legalize unreasonable acts. > > You should be able to defend yourself from a genuine danger. You should not be able to run people over because you’re annoyed and then claim it was self-defense. I think the problem here is that you (and other posters here) have fundamentally misunderstood [what SB 1096 did](https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2017/1096/BillText/Filed/HTML). It did NOT authorize motorists “to run people over because you’re annoyed”. > [@Ravenman](#): > > I agree with the others who see no need to change any laws. If someone is being threatened, they are within their rights to use proportionate force to deal with that threat, whether it is punching back, firing a gun, or driving away. > > The idea that protesters in the streets may be killed free of civil or criminal penalty regardless of the nature of the “threat” or the proportionality of driving through them, is really sickening. Likewise it does not embody the idea that “protesters in the streets may be killed free of civil or criminal penalty regardless of the nature of the “threat” or the proportionality of driving through them” > [@Guinastasia](#): > > And of course you can always wash the blood and guts off, but hey, my dentist HATES it when I’m late because I’m too much of a pussy to avoid hitting people with my car. > (Seriously, WTF?) It also does not authorize drivers to run people over because they’re going to miss a dentist appointment. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/111 "2018-04-04T01:15:26Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Which one(s)? When? Cite? (I’m genuinely unaware of this having happened. If it did, in fact, I’d love to know some details.) I am unaware of any freeways shut down by the Tea Party but they did manage to get the whole federal government to shut down a few times and got the US perilously close to defaulting on its debt obligations. I think the freeway is the lesser of those two but YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/112 "2018-04-04T01:16:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This pretty much is the last word that needs to be spoken. There should be absolutely no right to drive a vehicle into protesters. And yet, we’ve already covered some exceptional circumstances where it is, in fact, legal to do so. > [@Acsenray](#): > > There is absolutely zero reason to give drivers any expectation that they will never be hindered by people expressing their political views. As I’ve said before, I don’t think a mere inconvenience is a justification. I think it’s a stupid protesting tactic, but need not result in anyone’s harm. If physical violence is involved however, my tune changes. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Protesting is one of the most fundamental rights in our society. It is part of what makes us American, what makes us good, to the extent that we can claim to be good at all. It’s part of what our country’s values are based on. Yes, it’s one of our cherished freedoms and protesting should continue to be legal, within reasonable, content-neutral time, place, or manner restrictions. > [@Acsenray](#): > > So given what you say here, I would say fuck no to any right at all to run over a protester with a car. A “right to run over a protester with a car” is a strawman argument. Try harder. > [@Acsenray](#): > > Anything else I would have to say on this topic belongs in the Pit. IDGAF what you say there. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/113 "2018-04-04T01:17:03Z")
At the very least, traffic laws require drivers to yield to pedestrians, \*even when the pedestrians are in the roadway illegally. \* ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/114 "2018-04-04T01:18:57Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is weird that Texas state law would define a theft of under $1500 as a misdemeanor subject to up to a year in prison and up to a $4000 fine but it is ok with its citizens being judge, jury and executioner and meting out the death penalty for that very same crime. > > These two things do not square well. I generally find lawful self-defense laws to be good public policy. Texas has taken things a bit farther than other states with their laws against night-time burglary, but I have no plans to expend much time, energy, or money trying to change that. Nighttime burglars would be well-advised to do their burgling in states other than Texas. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/115 "2018-04-04T01:20:33Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Jury nullification for lynching has a long and respectable tradition behind it, that’s certainly true. Is every not-guilty verdict an example of “jury nullification” and a continuation of the that “tradition” with regard to lynchings in your eyes? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/116 "2018-04-04T01:22:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think the problem here is that you (and other posters here) have fundamentally misunderstood [url=[https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2017/1096/BillText/Filed/HTML](https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2017/1096/BillText/Filed/HTML)]what SB 1096 did[/urll]. It did NOT authorize motorists “to run people over because you’re annoyed”. > … > Likewise it does not embody the idea that “protesters in the streets may be killed free of civil or criminal penalty regardless of the nature of the “threat” or the proportionality of driving through them” > … > It also does not authorize drivers to run people over because they’re going to miss a dentist appointment. From your link of the law in question: > [@](#): > > (1) A person may not obstruct or interfere with the regular > 19 flow of vehicular traffic on a public road, street, or highway > 20 during a protest or demonstration for which a public assembly > 21 permit or other applicable special event permit has not been > 22 issued by a county or municipality. A person who violates this > 23 subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, > 24 punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083. > 25 (2) A motor vehicle operator who unintentionally causes > 26 injury or death to a person who obstructs or interferes with the > 27 regular flow of vehicular traffic in violation of subsection (1) > 28 is not liable for such injury or death. In any action brought > 29 pursuant to this section, a person accused of violating > 30 subsection (1) or his or her representative has the burden of > 31 proving that he or she did not violate subsection (1) or that > 32 the injury or death was not unintentional. > > SOURCE: [https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2017/1096/BillText/Filed/HTML](https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2017/1096/BillText/Filed/HTML) So it seems the person has to prove their innocence which is a flip of the innocent till proven guilty bit and then must prove that the driver intentionally hit them. That is a tough bar to get over giving great leeway to people running demonstrators over. “Oh, my foot slipped off the brake! I didn’t mean to! Oops! Prove otherwise…double dare you!” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/117 "2018-04-04T01:23:28Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > … I am fairly sure the law agrees with me on this, pretty much everywhere (in the US at least). But I’d like to hear a lawyer’s opinion. We’ve got a test case in Sacramento, from recently. A protester got struck by a police vehicle. I’m willing to accept, for the sake of argument at least, that other than being in the roadway she was an innocent bystander to the violence being directed against the vehicle. Do you think the DA will charge the driver in this case? I’m dubious. If (s)he does, do you think a jury will convict? I’m doubly dubious of that. I guess we’ll see though. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/118 "2018-04-04T01:25:35Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Here’s [one.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/TeaPartyByFreedomFan.JPG) ([Another view.](https://americansfortruth.com/uploads/2009/09/tea-party-rally_huge_wash-dc.bmp)) > > Here’s [another.](https://www.thevintagenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/kkkparade-12.jpg) > > And [another.](https://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/07/19/us/19COLUMBIA/19COLUMBIA-master1050.jpg) > > And [another.](https://newsregister.com/pub/photo/thumb/kkk-march-lincoln-maine-1924-1500_fitbox_1000x1000.gif) > > And yet [another.](https://www.jta.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/German_American_Bund_NYWTS1-e1427317652167.jpg) None of those appear to be “freeways”. Several of them are surface streets. My (admittedly vague and layman’s) impression is that in this day and age at least, protests are allowed to obtain permits to follow a route (even through the street sometimes), in which case police will typically close the streets along the route to vehicular traffic for the duration of the protest. That’s quite a bit of a different animal from wandering onto I-8 at night because your ass is chapped that Trump won. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/119 "2018-04-04T01:27:51Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > That was not the situation presented however.In this scenario, the protesters are not violating any law. If they have a permit to protest in the street, then the police probably have closed the street to vehicular traffic. If they don’t, the protesters are probably violating the law. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/120 "2018-04-04T01:28:59Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I meant to address this earlier. > > [Blocking](https://www.loc.gov/wiseguide/oct11/images/rights-a.jpg) [streets](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/-8cOUUTM_3U/maxresdefault.jpg) [is](http://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/marintheatre.org-assets/images/productions/choir-boy/March_on_Washington_for_Jobs_and_Freedom_Martin_Luther_King_Jr._and_Joachim_Prinz_1963.jpg) [a](http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/1th1j/picture7434785/alternates/LANDSCAPE_1140/AP6503210103%20(1).jpg) [time-honored](https://media.pri.org/s3fs-public/styles/story_main/public/photos/2013-March/selma_alabama_march.jpg?itok=Hav9Pjey) [result](https://ionenewsone.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/14256773594089.jpg?w=1024&quality=80&strip=all&h=738) [of](http://cbsnews1.cbsistatic.com/hub/i/2013/06/05/a5dbdd51-d25a-11e2-a43e-02911869d855/PF111812.jpg) [people](https://images.csmonitor.com/csm/2012/01/X00077_9.JPG.jpeg?alias=standard_540x360) [protesting.](https://aadl.org/sites/default/files/photos/N001_0800_013.jpg) > > Maybe you think they should rally in their church parking lot and stay there. I offered some recommendations in post #44 (ETA: but their church parking lot suits me fine too) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732.md?page=7)