# When should a person have the right to drive thru a crowd of demonstrators? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 3, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732 "2018-04-03T17:20:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/161 "2018-04-04T14:28:56Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > At the very least, traffic laws require drivers to yield to pedestrians, \*even when the pedestrians are in the roadway illegally. \* Yield, yes. But for how long and under what circumstances? Does a person have the right to stand in front of my car keeping me and thousands of others for as long as they want? What if I yell out I have to go thru, I blow my horn, and I slowly approach and they converge on my car to stop me? How long do I have to wait if they still block mine and a thousand other drivers paths? Are we talking minutes? Hours? If I end up losing my job could I charge them in small claims court? Finally what should be the penalty for illegally blocking traffic? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/162 "2018-04-04T14:39:52Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Yield, yes. But for how long and under what circumstances? Does a person have the right to stand in front of my car keeping me and thousands of others for as long as they want? No, blocking traffic is against the law. > [@](#): > > What if I yell out have to go thru, I blow my horn, and I slowly approach and they converge on my car to stop me? How long do I have to wait if they still block mine and a thousand other drivers paths? Are we talking minutes? Hours? Until the police come, or you find another route. > [@](#): > > If I end up losing my job could I charge them in small claims court? Yes. I don’t know if you could win though. > [@](#): > > Finally what should be the penalty for illegally blocking traffic? There already is. I don’t know what it is in your jurisdiction, probably a fine. I doubt if there is any jail time. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/163 "2018-04-04T14:56:28Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Then I think you do not understand our current laws on self-defense. I wouldn’t call it “legal carte blanc to run over whoever they want”, but it’s certainly well-established that they can respond with force to stop a threatened attack. > > A motorcyclist brake checks the Range Rover. The Range Rover appears to hit the motorcycle. Other motorcycle riders surround the vehicle. At some point, Mr. Lien feels threatened (justifiably so, I believe, as we will see momentarily). > > He FLOORS IT, driving over several motorcyclists (about 50 seconds into the video). It’s really the closest real-world example I can think of to a driver exercising “legal carte blanc to run over whoever they want (even if the people being run over are not ones doing the threatening)”. I think it illustrates an important point. Was Lien actually in danger? Or did he just feel like he was in danger? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/164 "2018-04-04T15:10:51Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Yield, yes. But for how long and under what circumstances? Does a person have the right to stand in front of my car keeping me and thousands of others for as long as they want? > > What if I yell out I have to go thru, I blow my horn, and I slowly approach and they converge on my car to stop me? How long do I have to wait if they still block mine and a thousand other drivers paths? Are we talking minutes? Hours? > > If I end up losing my job could I charge them in small claims court? > > Finally what should be the penalty for illegally blocking traffic? Yeah! Look at [this guy.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man) Those tanks should have immediately rolled over him. Darn him for blocking traffic! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/165 "2018-04-04T15:12:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think it illustrates an important point. Was Lien actually in danger? Or did he just feel like he was in danger? Or did he just claim that after the fact, when he realized what trouble he was in? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/166 "2018-04-04T15:16:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think it illustrates an important point. Was Lien actually in danger? Or did he just feel like he was in danger? The record pretty clearly shows he _felt_ like he was in danger. As for “actually in danger”, I don’t think we can know _for certain_ what the outcome might have been if he had just remained motionless after the initial fender bender, but give the motorcyclists’ subsequent actions, I think it’s a reasonable belief that he was actually in danger at the point that he punched the accelerator and ran them over. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/167 "2018-04-04T15:26:15Z")
Suppose all manual controls are removed from self driving cars in the future. A gang surrounds a self driving car, and its algorithm tells it to stop, as it is programmed to not hit pedestrians. The occupants of the car are trapped. How are they going to fix this issue? Are they going to wait for it to actually happen before they program for it? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/168 "2018-04-04T15:45:34Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > In the extreme case of Mr. Lien, yes, the legal system had the outcome I prefer. In the UCSD nighttime freeway collision, the driver still ended up getting sued, which I find a fairly ridiculous outcome which probably would have been prevented by a law like S.B. 1096, so I would not mind seeing states adopt such a law. The driver drove around a emergency vehicle that was attempting a rolling roadblock, so I can see why he can get sued. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/169 "2018-04-04T15:47:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The driver drove around a emergency vehicle that was attempting a rolling roadblock, so I can see why he can get sued. I’ve seen a few different accounts of that. At least one said it was as the cop was “starting the maneuver” or something like that. It wouldn’t surprise me if he didn’t realize he was initiating a rolling roadblock when he passed him. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/170 "2018-04-04T16:08:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’ve seen a few different accounts of that. At least one said it was as the cop was “starting the maneuver” or something like that. It wouldn’t surprise me if he didn’t realize he was initiating a rolling roadblock when he passed him. Sure. But I dont know if any of her suits have been settled. She apparently is also suing the University for not stopping her from protesting. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/171 "2018-04-04T16:19:06Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think roads are appropriate places for unpermitted protests. My hope would be that this bill either encourages protesters to stay out of traffic when protesting, or at least protects motorists when protesters are injured due to their own gross negligence. So you basically think it is good government policy to have peaceful protesters be worried about their lives, in order to compel them to get a permit. That’s fucked up. > [@](#): > > If you had some suggested modifications to the bill that still accomplished those purposes while perhaps allowing for driver liability in cases of great negligence, there’s a good chance I’d be supportive of those modifications. The current state of laws adequately addresses issues of negligence and criminal liability for vehicular manslaughter. On the criminal side, a person can make the case of self-defense; on the civil side, liability can be established by weighing the actions of the driver and the person who was killed. I really see zero need to change any laws here. In fact, I think what I’m reading in the posts that advocate for changing the law is simply a dislike for liberal protesters, with the further implication that if they are killed on the roads, it’s more or less okay because they suck anyways. > [@](#): > > The record pretty clearly shows he felt like he was in danger. As for “actually in danger”, I don’t think we can know for certain what the outcome might have been if he had just remained motionless after the initial fender bender, but give the motorcyclists’ subsequent actions, I think it’s a reasonable belief that he was actually in danger at the point that he punched the accelerator and ran them over. I believe the legal standard is whether a reasonable person would feel threatened. I think under the circumstances, a reasonable person would indeed feel threatened by the motorcycle gang. (But I must add that I haven’t spent a whole lot of time examining this particular case, so there could well be other mitigating or aggravating facts that I’m not aware of.) ETA again: but I must add that being threatened by a motorcycle gang has literally nothing to do with running over unpermitted protesters in the streets. Nothing. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/172 "2018-04-04T16:22:24Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Are you kidding me? OFF TOPIC?!? Off topic to “I was specifically talking about a case where the cars occupants did have a reasonable reason to fear for their safety. I cannot believe they would have legal carte blanc to run over whoever they want (even if the people being run over are not ones doing the threatening)” (which was the post I was responding to)? It’s EXACTLY “a case where the cars occupants did have a reasonable reason to fear for their safety” and ran over people blocking their escape. I don’t see how it could possibly have been more ON topic. No, the topic is about people blocking the street. The bikers were not blocking the street, and the guy did not drive up to them. They gathered around his vehicle while going down the road and decided to fuck with him, for reasons that are not clear to me. They initiated an incident that turned violent. By comparison, if there are people (pedestrians) in the street in front of you, for whatever reason, you do not just drive up to them. You stop at a respectful distance and figure out whether you should try to proceed. If you encroach on their space, you can expect them to be pissed at you. Driving into them is not acceptable. And you should learn that your physical space as a vehicle is very different from the physical space of a person. Cars can have a very threatening affect to people standing in front of them. So no, not even close to being on topic. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/173 "2018-04-04T16:31:33Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So you basically think it is good government policy to have peaceful protesters be worried about their lives, in order to compel them to get a permit. > > That’s fucked up. No. I don’t mind (in fact even kind of like to see) spontaneous protests that don’t take the time to get a permit from the government. I’d like to see those sort of protests follow a couple of basic norms though: 1. don’t be violent / destructive 2. don’t play in traffic If you ignore those norms and end up getting run over by motorists, you’ll not get a whole lot of sympathy from me. > [@Ravenman](#): > > The current state of laws adequately addresses issues of negligence and criminal liability for vehicular manslaughter. On the criminal side, a person can make the case of self-defense; on the civil side, liability can be established by weighing the actions of the driver and the person who was killed. I really see zero need to change any laws here. I disagree (and that’s okay: it’s perfectly normal for adults to have points they disagree on, and I like that we can do so respectfully). I feel that the driver in the UCSD incident has not been adequately protected by the current laws. > [@Ravenman](#): > > … In fact, I think what I’m reading in the posts that advocate for changing the law is simply a dislike for liberal protesters, with the further implication that if they are killed on the roads, it’s more or less okay because they suck anyways. I think you’re misreading that. I want protesters to stay out of traffic precisely because it’s dangerous and they’re likely to get injured / killed. I’d prefer if that didn’t happen, so I view changes to the law that incentivise them to stay out of traffic as good public policy. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/174 "2018-04-04T16:32:45Z")
Suppose I am driving to work. I see a bunch of protestors ahead of me blocking the roadway. They have no permit, and they are waving MAGA signs and chanting “Fire Mueller Now!” I honk my horn, and they don’t move. I flash my headlights, and they don’t move. I proceed ahead very slowly (\>1mph). The protesters have plenty of time to get out of the way, and being pushed out of the way at 1mph isn’t going to hurt them. Discuss. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/175 "2018-04-04T16:36:49Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > No, the topic is about people blocking the street. The bikers were not blocking the street, and the guy did not drive up to them. They gathered around his vehicle while going down the road and decided to fuck with him, for reasons that are not clear to me. They initiated an incident that turned violent. > > By comparison, if there are people (pedestrians) in the street in front of you, for whatever reason, you do not just drive up to them. You stop at a respectful distance and figure out whether you should try to proceed. If you encroach on their space, you can expect them to be pissed at you. Driving into them is not acceptable. And you should learn that your physical space as a vehicle is very different from the physical space of a person. Cars can have a very threatening affect to people standing in front of them. > > So no, not even close to being on topic. You should read more about the incident. I don’t think you’ve understood just how close it is to an annoyed driver whose desired path of travel is being blocked deliberately by participants in a rally. From [CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/20/us/new-york-bikers-attack/index.html): > [@](#): > > The incident began near the southern tip of Manhattan when bikers began blocking traffic and running red lights, endangering pedestrians, Lien testified. Once traffic began to move forward, the bikers were slapping the other cars open-handed as they navigated between the cars, he said. > > Growing increasingly annoyed by the slow-moving traffic as the family tried to celebrate their anniversary by shopping and dinner in New Jersey, Ng threw a half-eaten plum out of the window, Lien said. > > It was after this that one of the men on motorcycle punched the driver side mirror of Lien’s SUV, he said. When Ng tried to take a picture of the cyclist’s license plate, the bikers got angrier, he said. > > “He was waving for other motorcyclist to come towards us. He was yelling at us, and he was threatening us,” > Lien said in court Monday. “You can tell that he was screaming profanities at us, and he was also making gestures, slitting a throat gesture.” > > Ng then threw a half-filled water bottle through the sunroof of their SUV to “shoo them away,” Ng testified Tuesday. When the bottle landed on the hood of the car, the bikers began to laugh. > > The SUV and the bikers continued north on the highway when the SUV taps one of the motorcycles from behind. > > “A motorcyclist pulls up in front of me, and he starts speeding up, slowing down, speeding up, slowing down,” Lien said in court. “At a point where he slowed down too fast and I wasn’t able to break fast enough, so I tapped him… he didn’t wobble, he didn’t fall off his bike, continued.” > > Bikers got off of their bikes and surrounded the SUV. They used their helmets as a device to attempt to smash in the car windows, according to a video of the attack. ---
**Author:** ![SingleMalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/singlemalt/32/3961_2.png) [@SingleMalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SingleMalt)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/176 "2018-04-04T16:47:20Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Suppose I am driving to work. I see a bunch of protestors ahead of me blocking the roadway. They have no permit, and they are waving MAGA signs and chanting “Fire Mueller Now!” > > I honk my horn, and they don’t move. I flash my headlights, and they don’t move. I proceed ahead very slowly (\>1mph). The protesters have plenty of time to get out of the way, and being pushed out of the way at 1mph isn’t going to hurt them. > > Discuss. > > Regards, > Shodan As most cars are not equipped with old steam locomotive “cowcatchers”, the problem isn’t the people “pushed out of the way at 1 mph”, it’s the people that end up going under the car or wheels because they can’t get out of the way or get caught. And if you see them “ahead of you”, stop, turn around, and find a different route. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/177 "2018-04-04T16:53:30Z")
How come they can’t get out of the way if I am going \>1mph? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/178 "2018-04-04T16:56:37Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > How come they can’t get out of the way if I am going \>1mph? \<1mph. \>1mph is **greater than** 1 mile per hour, which could very well be 85 mph. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/179 "2018-04-04T16:56:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Suppose I am driving to work. I see a bunch of protestors ahead of me blocking the roadway. They have no permit, and they are waving MAGA signs and chanting “Fire Mueller Now!” > > I honk my horn, and they don’t move. I flash my headlights, and they don’t move. I proceed ahead very slowly (\>1mph). The protesters have plenty of time to get out of the way, and being pushed out of the way at 1mph isn’t going to hurt them. … I’ve seen a number of videos of drivers using some variations of this technique successfully. I don’t necessarily condone it, but the usual outcome does seem to be a driver on his way and no physical harm to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2018, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732/180 "2018-04-04T16:58:27Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > You should read more about the incident. I don’t think you’ve understood just how close it is to an annoyed driver whose desired path of travel is being blocked deliberately by participants in a rally. From [CNN](https://www.cnn.com/2015/05/20/us/new-york-bikers-attack/index.html): Not helping. The bikers were out partying and being assholes. If you think all protesters who march in the street and inconvenience you are assholes, I might get it, but I do not believe that to be the case and I am not going to make the character assessment of them from inside my car. I am not going to drive up to them, I am going to keep my distance and probably turn around to seek another route. If it is a one-way street, I will go the wrong way, because no one is going to be going forward anyway. If it is a small highway in remote North Dakota for which an alternate route is a massive detour, I will park right there, get out and try to get them to allow me through. Plowing through a crowd is just fucking asinine, even at 1mph. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-a-person-have-the-right-to-drive-thru-a-crowd-of-demonstrators/811732.md?page=10)