# When should we put "the" in front of acronyms? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 13, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625 "2008-11-13T23:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/1 "2008-11-13T23:47:13Z")
People say “the BBC”, but no one says “the NBC”, they just say “NBC”. Things that are preceded by “the” - CIA - FBI - UN - BBC Things that are \*\*not \*\*preceded by “the” - Nato - NBC - CBS Is there a general rule, or is it just random? ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/2 "2008-11-14T01:47:03Z")
There is not a rule that you would find written down anywhere, like in a style guide. We might be able to synthesize one, but I’m not sure. My first instinct would be to use “the” if you would “the” in the fully spelled-out version of the acronym. But I’m not sure that holds true. I think that one would talk about “_the_ North American Treaty Organization.” In the case of NBC and CBS, nobody ever spells it out, like other company names such as IBM (which didn’t take an article in the days when it was commonly spelled out, except maybe when you added the “Corporation” at the end). One talks about _a_ laser, but never \*a \*scuba; both started out life as acronyms. I would say it’s just random. ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/3 "2008-11-14T01:53:59Z")
"I remember a senator once asked me. When we talk about “CIA” why we never use the word “the” in front of it. And I asked him, do you put the word “the” in front of “God”? " From The Good Shepard 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/4 "2008-11-14T02:00:20Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > In the case of NBC and CBS, nobody ever spells it out, like other company names such as IBM (which didn’t take an article in the days when it was commonly spelled out, except maybe when you added the “Corporation” at the end). The acronym “IBM” _did_ occasionally take an article, at least in their [company songs](http://www.digibarn.com/collections/songs/ibm-songs/). ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/5 "2008-11-14T02:03:28Z")
Here’s a [Language Log post](http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004923.html) that covers everything in the OP and more. The gist: Initialisms which are “pronounceable as words” (i.e., “acronyms” in the narrow technical sense) generally do not take “the”. Initialisms which are pronounced by “spelling them out” generally take “the” if and only if their unabbreviated versions take “the”. There are certain classes of exceptions (in particular, broadcasting channels and educational institutions generally do not take “the”), and, of course, there is some variation from speaker to speaker, as always. These aren’t normative rules from on high which you have some responsibility to follow; these are just observations from interested researchers about how people happen to generally speak. ---
**Author:** ![Cider\_Depot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Cider\_Depot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cider_Depot)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/6 "2008-11-14T02:07:23Z")
MY WAG is that if the name in its full form is usually preceded by “The” then the acronym will be too. International Business Machines --\> IBM The British Broadcasting Association --\> The BBC National Aeronautics and Space Administration --\> NASA The Australian Taxation Office --\> The barrel of mother\*\*ckers Although I’m certain there are exceptions to this ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/7 "2008-11-14T02:22:45Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > One talks about _a_ laser, but never \*a \*scuba; both started out life as acronyms. But scuba is only an adjective, isn’t it? One speaks of scuba divers and scuba equipment, but not scuba by itself, right? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/8 "2008-11-14T03:14:05Z")
Well, scuba is an acronym of a noun (self-contained underwater breathing apparatus), so in theory, you should be able to use it as a noun. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/9 "2008-11-14T03:50:43Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I think that one would talk about “_the_ North American Treaty Organization.” If so, one would be wrong – NATO stands for North **Atlantic** Treaty Organization. Only two of the member nations are North American, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Tabby\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Tabby\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabby_Cat)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/10 "2008-11-14T04:04:54Z")
> [@Cider\_Depot](#): > > National Aeronautics and Space Administration –\> NASA I’m a bit iffy on this. Would you really say “In other news, National Aeronautics and Space Administration has launched a new form of wankery” or would you say “In other news, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration has launched a new form of wankery”? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/11 "2008-11-14T04:11:09Z")
> [@Tabby\_Cat](#): > > I’m a bit iffy on this. Would you really say “In other news, National Aeronautics and Space Administration has launched a new form of wankery” or would you say “In other news, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration has launched a new form of wankery”? NASA policy strictly prohibits wankery of any sort. I think you meant to put a “the” in one of those sentences, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/12 "2008-11-14T04:28:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I think you meant to put a “the” in one of those sentences, by the way. Psssttt… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/13 "2008-11-14T04:30:08Z")
:smack: > [@Absolute](#): > > Psssttt… I swear that wasn’t there before! ---
**Author:** ![Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@Alive\_At\_Both\_Ends](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alive_At_Both_Ends)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/14 "2008-11-14T13:08:25Z")
> [@Cider\_Depot](#): > > The British Broadcasting Association –\> The BBC Since when has “Association” begun with a C? _Corporation_, please. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/15 "2008-11-14T13:34:23Z")
I think it’s the Oz accent that is throwing everyone off. ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/16 "2008-11-14T19:31:38Z")
I think I have it \*\* If acronym is pronouncable\*\* Don’t use “the” _Nato, FEMA, Nasa_ **otherwise** **If it is government related** [INDENT]Use “the” _IRS, FBI, UN, BBC_ ``` **otherwise** Don't use "the" *NBC, CBS, KFC* ``` [/INDENT] Can you guys think of any exceptions? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/17 "2008-11-14T19:34:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Can you guys think of any exceptions? Your rule might hold for organizations, but we say “the ATM”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/18 "2008-11-15T01:50:26Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > I think I have it > \*\* > If acronym is pronouncable\*\* > Don’t use “the” > _Nato, FEMA, Nasa_ > > **otherwise** > **If it is government related** > [INDENT]Use “the” > _IRS, FBI, UN, BBC_ > > ``` > **otherwise** > Don't use "the" > *NBC, CBS, KFC* > > ``` > > [/INDENT] > > Can you guys think of any exceptions? The NBA. The NFL. The NHL. Et cetera. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/19 "2008-11-15T01:54:30Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > **If it is government related** > [INDENT]Use “the” > _IRS, FBI, UN, BBC_ > [/INDENT] The BBC is not “government related”. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625/20 "2008-11-15T01:57:10Z")
> [@Polerius](#): > > I think I have it As I mentioned above, I would correct your version to this: **If acronym is pronouncable** Don’t use “the” _Nato, FEMA, Nasa_ **otherwise** **If it is an educational institution or primarily a (specific particular) broadcasting channel** [INDENT]Don’t use “the” _MIT, UCLA, NBC, CBS_ ``` **otherwise** Use "the" (or other appropriate article) if and only if you would do so with the unabbreviated version *KFC, L.A., the IRS, the FBI, the UN, the BBC, the NFL, the NHL, the/an ATM* ``` [/INDENT] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-should-we-put-the-in-front-of-acronyms/472625.md?page=2)