# When socio-cultural stereotypes prove true. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 19, 2018, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821 "2018-03-19T12:24:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/41 "2018-06-06T11:31:56Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > black people excel at motor and athletic pursuits but underachieve academically. Yeah, just look at [this array](https://www.google.co.za/search?num=50&safe=off&q=top+nascar+drivers&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAFVRy07CQBRNdaOVKMGVLEzjyk2Z6UAHdWFClBiikhhIjG6aPgE7dMrMlNp-Bt_hj8gHuHThzj8wrNQwk-ju3HPuuc-tw8eaoKmRuNx3mRGwyTxkfKltgymA9kkivKWm_-IYCh9ZSmjmBEqMReTMJW7hVvysMMdCFcIzz8OyEC5jMYukgAgpCyk8IUjQXAbjscAIyaxmUsYj1TpKWKr4wEmV2y75SVvNh3DpTJVhZkXkQ7vdqX5-ve_XLxcvr2_aua7fh14n4fnPtjWo63dZyIoL4nJeO9Kr9cpNbzB0Bt3uda9_dazVd_V_TGWlHXR8n7JgkowMQY2Mu4IGbtHw6XS1sSev6XT7w97wwVls0rEQKT8DIM_zxt9kwAVlBeApZYKDtQ8gaLUBPAWWLRnTz1KTh2wSctPCZkrcgkaRuf6W6bspz0jIAbbbECEILfANdJE7ptcBAAA&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_s8Gu977bAhWqBcAKHffyB64Q5twBCCgoATAA&biw=1875&bih=963) of proud Black excellence… ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/42 "2018-06-06T13:46:43Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Well, one might wonder what is especially “Canadian” about these particular values. I’m not saying Canadians don’t value them, I’m sure they do, but since you later claim that Canadian identity has been defined to mean identification with these values, then there has to be something in them that is unique to Canadians. That doesn’t logically follow at all. There is absolutely no reason why these values have to be unique to Canada, for Canadians to self-identify with them. The “unique” part, if unique it is (and again, there is nothing prohibiting anyone else from doing it … ) is that self-identification with such values, alone, together with residence in this nation, and without any requirement for tracing one’s ancestry back to some putative group of forefathers, is sufficient for inclusion as a “Canadian”. Again, if there is anything “unique” about these values, it is merely that they are emphasized over other values. For example, the US is said to value “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness” (while Canadians are said to value “Peace, Order and Good Government”). Does this mean that only the US values “liberty” and only Canada values “peace”? Clearly not … these are values that people all over the world value. Many Canadians value “liberty” and many Americans value “peace”. What is _unique_, for the purposes of self-identity, is what emphasis each group chooses from among these values. Americans are fundamentally different from English Canadians, despite many cultural similarities, because America, through its history, has chosen a different set of values to emphasize – and it is the choice of the specific set which makes each of them different. Someone from another nation could, very easily, ‘believe in’ all of the benign values mentioned in both lists - life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, peace, order and good government - and more besides. That doesn’t mean the unique sets adopted by the US and Canada aren’t distinctive. > [@](#): > > Also, as a Quebecer, I certainly have noticed the ambivalence of English Canadians towards my identity, which is what I was pointing out in my post. Do you think our identity violates or skirts one of these basic Canadian norms? It’s different from the self-identity “English” Canadians are busy constructing, puts emphasis on valuing different things. This is bound to cause a certain amount of friction - English Canadians tend to see Quebec as being, basically, in love with a specifically tribal identity that English Canada has discarded for itself; Quebec tends to see English Canada as fooling itself about having discarded its own tribal identity. Hell, this debate is sort of an example of that in miniature. > [@](#): > > As I’ve said, this is so general as to be unworkable. Anybody can value hard work and civility, without having ever lived in Canada (or even heard of this country). > > I know you’re trying to show how inclusive Canadian identity is, and that’s certainly admirable. But there has to be more to it. My perception is that Canadians require one to align with the Canadian nation’s goals (or what they believe these goals to be) to truly be Canadian. But if you want to define the goals of the Canadian nation with any precision, you risk creating a debate, especially given the diversity of the country’s population. But I see very few national-level debates or discussions regarding the country’s identity among English Canadians, which from the perspective of a Quebecer is a clear cultural difference. Hence, my conclusion that English Canadians shy away from such debates and leave the construction of a national narrative to elites, and then expect compliance and conformity. You start out with your conclusions (“there has to be more to it”). Actually … there doesn’t have to be more. The generality of the self-identity isn’t a problem and is not “unworkable” for the simple reason that there is no “work” that it needs to do, other than to act as a focus of social cohesion … which you yourself note, is exactly what it does: “But I see very few national-level debates or discussions regarding the country’s identity among English Canadians, which from the perspective of a Quebecer is a clear cultural difference.” The lack of “debate over identity” is a feature, not a bug: you can have whatever “identity” you want … as long as you agree to the vague, benign positive attributes which Canadians have defined as worthy of emphasis, being the attributes of “Canadian-ness”. You don’t believe that, and see rather a set of “elites” creating a narrative and requiring conformity … Now, every nation has “elites”, and in every nation elites attempt to have their way, but I see no evidence that those of English Canada are uniquely influential compared with elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/43 "2018-06-06T15:24:55Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yeah, just look at [this array](https://www.google.co.za/search?num=50&safe=off&q=top+nascar+drivers&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAFVRy07CQBRNdaOVKMGVLEzjyk2Z6UAHdWFClBiikhhIjG6aPgE7dMrMlNp-Bt_hj8gHuHThzj8wrNQwk-ju3HPuuc-tw8eaoKmRuNx3mRGwyTxkfKltgymA9kkivKWm_-IYCh9ZSmjmBEqMReTMJW7hVvysMMdCFcIzz8OyEC5jMYukgAgpCyk8IUjQXAbjscAIyaxmUsYj1TpKWKr4wEmV2y75SVvNh3DpTJVhZkXkQ7vdqX5-ve_XLxcvr2_aua7fh14n4fnPtjWo63dZyIoL4nJeO9Kr9cpNbzB0Bt3uda9_dazVd_V_TGWlHXR8n7JgkowMQY2Mu4IGbtHw6XS1sSev6XT7w97wwVls0rEQKT8DIM_zxt9kwAVlBeApZYKDtQ8gaLUBPAWWLRnTz1KTh2wSctPCZkrcgkaRuf6W6bspz0jIAbbbECEILfANdJE7ptcBAAA&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi_s8Gu977bAhWqBcAKHffyB64Q5twBCCgoATAA&biw=1875&bih=963) of proud Black excellence… lol. I can’t tell whether he means “motor sports” or “motor skills” i.e. coordination. Driving a NASCAR car isn’t shit compared to flying a fighter plane, and there have been more great black fighter pilots than I can count. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/44 "2018-06-06T15:26:24Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > At least 3 Formula One champions that I can think of off the top of my head have been Jewish, so they punch above their weight/demographic size when it comes to that sport. But there have always been a lot of Jewish baseball and football players, so I find the “Jewish = bad at sports” stereotype to be weird. When you consider how many Jews there are relative to the world population, they seem to be _over_-represented in just about every field. > > When it comes to driving, though, nobody can beat the Italians. And the Italians have also produced a lot of great scientists, probably equal to the Jews in that department. [I’ll be damned.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jews_in_sports) Looks like my stereotype was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/45 "2018-06-06T15:37:51Z")
lol, it kills me that that Wiki has a category for Canoeing. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/46 "2018-06-06T18:24:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That doesn’t logically follow at all. There is absolutely no reason why these values have to be unique to Canada, for Canadians to self-identify with them. > > The “unique” part, if unique it is (and again, there is nothing prohibiting anyone else from doing it … ) is that self-identification with such values, alone, together with residence in this nation, and without any requirement for tracing one’s ancestry back to some putative group of forefathers, is sufficient for inclusion as a “Canadian”. Okay, so it **does** also include at least “residence in this nation”. (But then again, there are also Canadians who live abroad, so it’s more complicated than that.) I guess I value hard work and civility, and I also live in Canada. Do you think of me as Canadian? I’m sure you’ll say you do, or that “I am if I want to”, but as we’ll get to later in this post, you seem to think (or to say that English Canadians as a group tend to think) of my opinions, values, way of life, of my whole identity as “problematic” and in need of being called out, to use some popular modern lingo. So of course I can be Canadian, buuut… you’d like me to change who I am to conform with the role that you perceive “French Canadians” should have in the Canada of 2018. > [@](#): > > For example, the US is said to value “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness” (while Canadians are said to value “Peace, Order and Good Government”). > > Does this mean that only the US values “liberty” and only Canada values “peace”? It’s not only Americans who value liberty and only Canadians who value peace, but Canadians definitely value peace (and order) much more than they value liberty and democracy. I’d say Canada is only incidentally a liberal democracy, while that’s a fundamental property of the US. This is of course due to historical reasons, but given the number of Canadians you hear brag that Canada became independent “because we asked politely” as a dig towards the US that fought for its independence, it’s clearly what Canadians want even today. I’d also say Quebec has a much more “democratic” (and also “republican”) culture of political and social engagement than Canada, which is one of the reasons why I’ll honestly say I prefer it. > [@](#): > > It’s different from the self-identity “English” Canadians are busy constructing, puts emphasis on valuing different things. This is bound to cause a certain amount of friction - English Canadians tend to see Quebec as being, basically, in love with a specifically tribal identity that English Canada has discarded for itself; Quebec tends to see English Canada as fooling itself about having discarded its own tribal identity. Well, English Canadians are wrong. The values are in fact a bit different; I guess you could say, as I did earlier, that in society-wide debates Quebec society values more “democracy” and “republicanism” while Canadian society values more “peace” and “order”, and in personal interactions Quebec society values more “honesty” while Canadian society values more “politeness”. None of these two models is out of line for a modern Western country, so it’s just a matter of personal preference but can lead to some level of cultural shock. But what is wrong is the idea that “Quebec [is] in love with a specifically tribal identity that English Canada has discarded for itself”. Anyone can adopt the Quebec national identity, provided they think of themselves as such and accept a certain set of values. And they should be able to communicate in French and accept that it is the national language of Quebec. Maybe this is what you’ll call a “tribal identity” and whip out the case of your Ukrainian, barely English-speaking in-laws, but **Gyrate** ’s joke, as well as the recurrent debates over bilingualism in Canada, should remind you that Canada also has a lot of difficulty with large subgroups who “won’t” speak English. (Yes, I know **Gyrate** is British and doesn’t know anything about Canadian social debates, but they got that joke from some English Canadian.) ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/47 "2018-06-06T18:34:42Z")
Tabarnak de cuuuuuuuuuuuuulisssse ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2018, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/48 "2018-06-06T18:48:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The lack of “debate over identity” is a feature, not a bug: you can have whatever “identity” you want … as long as you agree to the vague, benign positive attributes which Canadians have defined as worthy of emphasis, being the attributes of “Canadian-ness”. > > You don’t believe that, and see rather a set of “elites” creating a narrative and requiring conformity … > > Now, every nation has “elites”, and in every nation elites attempt to have their way, but I see no evidence that those of English Canada are uniquely influential compared with elsewhere. Not only debate over identity; there is very little debate over **anything** in English Canada. I’ll give a real-life example. A year or so ago I attended a talk given by an administrator of Manitoba’s Catholic health corporation. He was discussing euthanasia and medical assistance in dying, which is now a guaranteed right in Canada by a decision of the Supreme Court. He was saying that the only jurisdiction in Canada to have held a public debate on the subject had been Quebec. An audience member added that Quebec had been soundly mocked in the rest of Canada at the time, but the result had been that Quebecers knew where they stood on the issue as a society, and the Quebec National Assembly could pass a law about it, while the rest of Canada just had a Supreme Court decision sprung upon it. I guess Canadians have now accepted the decision of the Supreme Court (the “elites” in this case) because if it caused a debate at the time, it seems to have died down now. I’m not saying Canada is necessarily wrong there. Maybe it’s a good thing, in a very diverse country, to avoid discussing contentious subjects when some of the opinions expressed could offend or exclude someone, and leave the debate to elites, to whose decision everybody is then expected to conform. What I’m saying is that it’s not necessarily “better” than the alternative. Canadians seem to think their country objectively **is** the best country in the world, and while I agree that some people certainly prefer it to any other country and that’s fine, it’s certainly fine as well to prefer some other way of doing things. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/49 "2018-06-07T02:56:45Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > So many Canadians on this board keep parroting WELL YOU KNOW WE BURNED DOWN THE WHITE HOUSE argument despite the fact you can easily prove they didn’t, but then they pretend to never have read that and then later post in a different place that exact same argument. They’re probably getting their history lessons from your President, who told our Prime Minister that the national security tariffs on Canadian steel are justified because Canadians burnt down the White House: > **['Didn't you guys burn down the White House?' Trump uses War of 1812 to...](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/didnt-you-guys-burn-down-the-white-house-trump-uses-war-of-1812-to-justify-canada-as-security-threat)** > > Some men from Canada did burn down the presidential mansion in 1814, but they were all technically British ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/50 "2018-06-07T06:53:11Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > They’re probably getting their history lessons from your President, who told our Prime Minister that the national security tariffs on Canadian steel are justified because Canadians burnt down the White House: > > [http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/didnt-you-guys-burn-down-the-white-house-trump-uses-war-of-1812-to-justify-canada-as-security-threat](http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/didnt-you-guys-burn-down-the-white-house-trump-uses-war-of-1812-to-justify-canada-as-security-threat) Says a lot about Canadians when they and Donald Trump have the same level of general history knowledge. Next up Trump is going to say that the Canadian Avro Arrow could have saved the United States Air Force. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/51 "2018-06-07T14:22:27Z")
> [@Jacquernagy](#): > > lol, it kills me that that Wiki has a category for Canoeing. Wiki has a category for just about everything. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/52 "2018-06-07T14:28:26Z")
I’ve been surprised by the “Sorry about dat, eh” stereotype - I can’t recall meeting a Canadian who could be described as the ‘apologetic’ type. They seemed to be quite assertive people, actually. (Disclaimer: My entire experience with Canadians amounts to little more than a few days in Toronto and interactions with a few other Canadians) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/53 "2018-06-07T15:31:06Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > (Yes, I know **Gyrate** is British and doesn’t know anything about Canadian social debates, but they got that joke from some English Canadian.) Two nitpicks: 1. I’m British-American - born and raised in the US but have been living in the UK long enough to also pick up UK citizenship as well. 2. I got the main joke from an English Canadian but the Quebec addendum is all my own. But it is correct to say my knowledge of Canadian social debates is largely superficial. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/54 "2018-06-07T17:32:51Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Wiki has a category for just about everything. Yeah I know but specifically that the “Jewish Athletes” category has a subcategory for Canoeing. I’ll leave the rhyming potential of “Jew” and “Canoe” to someone with more comedic talent. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/55 "2018-06-07T18:04:26Z")
In Pat Conroy’s _The Great Santini_, a young Jewish character in the Sixties South calls his big boat of a car “the Jew Canoe.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/56 "2018-06-07T22:09:26Z")
Pierre Berton said that one of the distinguishing features of Canadians was that they can make love in a canoe without tipping. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/57 "2018-06-07T22:11:16Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Pierre Berton said that one of the distinguishing features of Canadians was that they can make love in a canoe without tipping. Though 15-25% is reasonable consideration for above-average service. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/58 "2018-06-08T01:43:09Z")
Tabarnak de _caaaaaanooooooe_ ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821/59 "2018-06-08T09:03:35Z")
Canadians have lovemaking in a canoe; Americans have Budweiser. They’re both fucking close to water. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-socio-cultural-stereotypes-prove-true/810821.md?page=2)