# When The Adjective Follows The Noun (In English) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 17, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073 "2015-01-17T16:31:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HeyHomie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heyhomie/32/207_2.png) [@HeyHomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeyHomie)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/1 "2015-01-17T16:31:57Z")
The convention in English is to put the adjective before the noun 99.99% of the time. But for some reason, there are cases where it is used. For example: commit a crime as a serviceman/woman, and you’ll face a Court Martial; commit a crime as a civilian, and you may hear from the Attorney General. And of course, Orlando is The City Beautiful, and Hamms is The Beer Refreshing. Other than sounding slightly florid (or poetic, depending on your point of view), is there any specific reason you would put an adjective after a noun? Martial (military) Court, though it hits the ear wrong, makes no less sense than Court Martial. Similarly, General Attorney makes no less sense than Attorney General. What’s the scoop? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/2 "2015-01-17T16:51:30Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > The convention in English … Answered your own question right there. Every social whatever has conventions. > [@](#): > > … is there any specific reason you would put an adjective after a noun? … I’m sure linguistics people and speakers of other languages will check in… In American Sign Language, for example, classically it is “ball red.” Makes perfect sense: what are you talking about, what about it. If you really want to talk about the redness of …, you can switch it, and the languages I know allow it for that reason–as does English, quite a bit more than 0.01% of the time (I’ll match your hyperbole and raise it one litote). Interestingly, within the last generation or two the convention in ASL is changing to match the English one, and adjective-noun is used all over. German grammar, in its use of verbs and adverbs, is famous (in the West, at least) for being quite “strict” in making people stay at the edge of their seat waiting to find out where the subject is going–like conventional English with adjectives, if you want to look at it that way. But like in all languages (I know of) that can be jimmied when necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/3 "2015-01-17T17:12:40Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > Hamms is The Beer Refreshing. Well, _Hamms, the beer refreshing_ fits the meter of the [jingle](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP8JgQxXO8U) better than _Hamms, the refreshing beer_. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/4 "2015-01-17T17:22:39Z")
Many of them come from the French, as Attorney General does. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/5 "2015-01-17T17:26:20Z")
Right - many of the legal terms of the English common law were heavily influenced by “law French”, which was used in the English well after English was the language used elsewhere in government. Those influences remain. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/6 "2015-01-17T17:28:40Z")
I believe it’s a holdover from the French; because of the Norman Conquest of 1066, English developed with a Germanic base (Anglo-Saxon) for commoners and a Latinate superstructure (French) for the aristocracy. This dichotomy continues to the present day; e.g., it’s why you _sweat_ while a rich person _perspires_. In English, French terms naturally abound in such specialized fields as the legal profession and the military, which is where your examples come from. Saying things like _the brothers Grimm_ makes you sound a bit more sophisticated than if you said _the Grimm brothers_. And so on, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/7 "2015-01-17T17:38:25Z")
Additional note: With terms like _court martial_, the correct plural is _courts martial_ and not _court martials_. In other words, the ending goes on the noun and not the adjective, just as it should. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/8 "2015-01-17T17:44:29Z")
How about the construction in “the maiden all forlorn”? I don’t think that one comes from French (isn’t “maiden” Germanic?), but then, it seems to be somehow different from “attorney general” or “cordon bleu”, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/9 "2015-01-17T17:48:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How about the construction in “the maiden all forlorn”? I don’t think that one comes from French (isn’t “maiden” Germanic?), but then, it seems to be somehow different from “attorney general” or “cordon bleu”, anyway. Yes, _maiden_ comes from _Mädchen_, but the etymology of the word is unimportant. The French syntax can be used with words of any origin, especially to create poetry. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/10 "2015-01-17T17:51:22Z")
In fact, I think all of the words in _the maiden all forlorn_ are Germanic in origin (Scandinavian if not Anglo-Saxon). ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/11 "2015-01-17T17:52:34Z")
More precisely, I believe _maiden_ and _Mädchen_ are cognate; i.e., they evolved separately from a common root. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/12 "2015-01-17T17:55:06Z")
Our borrowing of French words into English usage gives us carte blanche on placing the adjectives. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/13 "2015-01-17T17:59:31Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Our borrowing of French words into English usage gives us carte blanche on placing the adjectives. That’s quite a bon mot! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/14 "2015-01-17T21:09:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > How about the construction in “the maiden all forlorn”? I don’t think that one comes from French (isn’t “maiden” Germanic?), but then, it seems to be somehow different from “attorney general” or “cordon bleu”, anyway. To be sure, we can in poetry at once point out that, in grammar and word order regarding, off all bets are. The OP’s examples “Orlando is The City Beautiful, and Hamms is The Beer Refreshing” I think as poetic can be explained. _This is the judge all shaven and shorn That married the man all tattered and torn That kissed the maiden all forlorn_ Examples galore abound. ETA: Actually, I think the examples from House That Jack Built can better be interpreted as phrases appositive, even if missing the commas required are. Hey, poetry it is. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/15 "2015-01-17T21:24:29Z")
Y’know, on thought second, I think not that those are phrases appositive after all. Post-adjectives with pre-adverbs I think now they are as suggested **Chronos** in place the first. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/16 "2015-01-17T22:06:26Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > That’s quite a bon mot! 🆒 Well, poor grammar has always been a bete noire with me. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/17 "2015-01-18T03:22:12Z")
Huh, funny, I was subbing for a language arts class the other day where they were learning about appositive phrases, and I was frantically scouring my memory for anything I remembered about them (“Your search for ‘appositive phrase’ returned zero hits. Did you mean to search for ‘quantum field theory’?”), and here they show up a day later. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/18 "2015-01-18T04:16:39Z")
Did you remember to pick up the Sevens-Up? We will need crates aplenty to stock our house beautiful. In times past, in fact, since time immemorial, that was enough for many dreams deferred. While you’re at it, could you also get some nachos supreme? The ministers plenipotentiary and the femmes fatale are coming and threatening to call up some courts-martial unless we deliver proof positive of catering extraordinaire. If we fail, they will consider it malice aforethought and convince the body politic to declare us personas non grata with letters patent delivered by a private first class. Even God Almighty would be afraid of such a force majeure. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/19 "2015-01-18T04:53:18Z")
[William Safire Orders Two Whoppers Junior](http://www.theonion.com/articles/william-safire-orders-two-whoppers-junior,3351/) ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2015, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073/20 "2015-01-18T05:48:58Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > personas non grata Nitpick: The correct plural is _personae non gratae_ (Latin, not French; the adjective takes an ending). And 7-Up is a proper name (one 7-Up, two 7-Ups). 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-adjective-follows-the-noun-in-english/710073.md?page=2)