# When the hero is actually the villain (spoilers for Jurassic Park II & other movies)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [July 12, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202 "2006-07-12T17:40:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/21 "2006-07-12T23:31:27Z")
> [@mr. jp](#):
>
> - The Jedis in Star Wars ep 2. Why are they fighting to force people to stay in the republic? That can’t be right.
Well as an American… where this issue actually came up fairly recently (okay 150 years ago… ) I think they might have been justified.
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### Author:  [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)
#### Post date: [July 12, 2006, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/22 "2006-07-12T23:42:53Z")
I thought I’d be lucky if one person caught the reference.
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### Author:  [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/23 "2006-07-13T00:27:35Z")
In _Colossus: The Forbin Project_:
[spoiler]My father was in braces when this one came out. Do I really need a spoiler box?
Well, anyway…in the end, you might argue that all the humans did was fail to stop the computers from _saving the world,_ and ushering in a new era of peace, plenty, and content.
(To coin a couple of phrases.)[/spoiler]
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### Author:  [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/24 "2006-07-13T00:31:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> Because the leader of the separatist cause is a Sith lord?
They don’t even know that in episode 2 do they? And besides, what kind of a reason is that?
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### Author:  [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/25 "2006-07-13T00:48:48Z")
> [@](#):
>
> In Colossus: The Forbin Project:
Well, you can’t tell from the flick, but if you read Jones’ book and its _two_ sequels (_The Fall of Colossus_ and _Colossusand the Crab_), you see that Colossus is intelligent but amoral, and does some pretty nasty things in trying to find out what makes humans tick. It’s clearly a dystopia.
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### Author:  [@Professor\_Farnsworth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Professor_Farnsworth)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/26 "2006-07-13T01:27:20Z")
I suppose the same things could be said about the lead characters in **The Godfather**.
We are persuaded to view Vito and Michael Corleone as champions of justice for the underpriviledged masses; but in reality, they are really nothing more than criminals hiding behind a legions of thugs. Granted, those that receive the sharp end of the stick from the Corleones are far from blameless (i.e. the two rapists, the movie producer, the police chief). But the Corleone family seems to default to violence much more often than trying to work things out reasonably.
The only time we see a Corleone attempt a sensible end to violence is after Sonny is killed. Only then does Don Vito attempt to come to a compromise without violence. Even then, Michael goes over his father’s head at the end of the film in a blood soaked conclusion.
While I’m thinking about Al Pacino, I might as well offer **Scarface** as another protagonist who is ultimately villianous. It’s harder to find sympathy for Tony Montana; he was a real asshole throughout the whole movie. He is motivated solely by self-interest and forsakes his family, friends, and traditional morals in order to pursue his dreams of becoming a powerful and influential drug kingpin. I suppose the entire point of the movie is to despise Tony for the things he does, but he is the protagonist nonetheless.
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### Author:  [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/27 "2006-07-13T01:31:06Z")
> [@Professor Farnsworth](#):
>
> While I’m thinking about Al Pacino, I might as well offer **Scarface** as another protagonist who is ultimately villianous. It’s harder to find sympathy for Tony Montana; he was a real asshole throughout the whole movie. He is motivated solely by self-interest and forsakes his family, friends, and traditional morals in order to pursue his dreams of becoming a powerful and influential drug kingpin. I suppose the entire point of the movie is to despise Tony for the things he does, but he is the protagonist nonetheless.
Well, movies where criminals and killers are the protagonists are very common: Goodfellas, Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, Leon/The Professional, The Usual Suspects, and Fight Club are some extremely popular examples. I think the OP was trying to narrow it down to movies where you think the protagonist is a “good guy” (noble/heroic/upstanding), but a reveal shows he’s really the bad guy when all is said and done.
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### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/28 "2006-07-13T01:46:29Z")
> [@Big Bad Voodoo Lou](#):
>
> Well, movies where criminals and killers are the protagonists are very common: Goodfellas, Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction, Leon/The Professional, The Usual Suspects, and Fight Club are some extremely popular examples. I think the OP was trying to narrow it down to movies where you think the protagonist is a “good guy” (noble/heroic/upstanding), but a reveal shows he’s really the bad guy when all is said and done.
You’re exactly right; that’s what I was looking for: either cases where it’s revealed explicitly that the putative hero is the villain of the piece, or when the narrative never admits it but it’s obvious upon close examination.
But since when do threads stay on topic on the SMDB? :rolleyes:
I hope somebody will come oup with some more good examples, though.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/29 "2006-07-13T01:55:42Z")
> [@mr. jp](#):
>
> - The Jedis in Star Wars ep 2. Why are they fighting to force people to stay in the republic? That can’t be right.
I don’t think the motives of the separtists was particularly pure. In the first film, it’s apparent that the Trade Federation’s main problem with the Republic was that it wouldn’t let them invade Naboo.
> [@Push You Down](#):
>
> Its not a very American way of looking at things, it comes from a foreign philosphy viewpoint that not a lot of westerners understand. I don’t personally adhere to it though. I don’t watch movies that only reenforce my world view.
Totalitarianism is not foreign to Western philosophy, more’s the pity. _Hero_ was essentially propaganda for the Chinese government. “It’s okay if your leaders kill some of you, so long as it benefits most of you.” A very pretty film, but morally repugnant.
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### Author:  [@Yumblie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yumblie)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/30 "2006-07-13T02:02:17Z")
Something like this happens in _The Nightmare Before Christmas_. Jack, even though his intentions were good, completely disrupts Christmas without notifying anyone in Christmas town, and organizes the kidnapping of Santa. In the end he realizes his mistake though.
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### Author:  [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/31 "2006-07-13T02:21:54Z")
The movie \*Doom[i/].
You start out thinking that the Sarge is the good guy who will have the show down with the big bad. In the end though Sarge turns out top be the big bad and the second in command turns out to be the hero.
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### Author:  [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/32 "2006-07-13T02:21:57Z")
The movie \*Doom[i/].
You start out thinking that the Sarge is the good guy who will have the show down with the big bad. In the end though Sarge turns out to be the big bad and the second in command turns out to be the hero.
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### Author:  [@Amp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amp)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/33 "2006-07-13T02:23:27Z")
The movie _Doom_.
You start out thinking that the Sarge is the good guy who will have the show down with the big bad. In the end though Sarge turns out to be the big bad and the second in command turns out to be the hero.
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### Author:  [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/34 "2006-07-13T02:48:57Z")
Do we mean movies where the good guy turnes out to be the villain? If so, I nominate
**Flightplan**.
There’s also **Psycho** – Norman seems a pretty nice person until the end. Hitchcock’s **Secret Agent** also has something similar.
If you mean heroes who do nasty things, Dr. Who once committed genocide, killing an entire enemy race in “The Terror of the Vervoids.”
Jody Foster in **Flightplan** starts screwing around with a plane’s avionics while in flight – she knows what she’s doing, but it does put the rest of the passengers in jeopardy.
Captain Kirk once abandoned a couple of crewmembers on a planet while he went off the save the universe.
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### Author:  [@Hey\_It\_s\_That\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_It_s_That_Guy)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/35 "2006-07-13T02:54:21Z")
Gary Sinise seems to be the king of the good guy/bad guy switch. I can think of two movies where he fools everyone up until the very end:
Ransom[/spoiler] and [spoiler]Snake Eyes.
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### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/36 "2006-07-13T03:03:41Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#):
>
> Do we mean movies where the good guy turnes out to be the villain?
That’s certainly what _I_ mean.
> [@](#):
>
> If you mean heroes who do nasty things, Dr. Who once committed genocide, killing an entire enemy race in “The Terror of the Vervoids.”
> Jody Foster in **Flightplan** starts screwing around with a plane’s avionics while in flight – she knows what she’s doing, but it does put the rest of the passengers in jeopardy.
I don’t recall her doing such damage that the plane was in jeopardy of crashing; she would not do that, as her daughter was on board.
> [@](#):
>
> Captain Kirk once abandoned a couple of crewmembers on a planet while he went off the save the universe.
I don’t remember that one…what episode? (Not that it fits the OP.)
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### Author:  [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/37 "2006-07-13T03:09:40Z")
> [@Skald the Rhymer](#):
>
> You’re exactly right; that’s what I was looking for: either cases where it’s revealed explicitly that the putative hero is the villain of the piece, or when the narrative never admits it but it’s obvious upon close examination.
Either Roger Ebert or some other film critic called this the “Designated Hero”. The character we’re supposed to support, but who’s only claim to actual heroism is that their name appears first in the credits. Also characters who do immoral, selfish or irresponsible things that are just waved away by the writer or director on the grounds that it’s ok because he’s the hero. The converse would of course be the “Designated Villain.”
And yeah, Jurrassic Park II is a perfect example. Now that I think of it, Julianne Moore seems to always give off “Designated Hero” vibes in everything she does. You just know that everyone that starts out on her side is going to get killed or treated like shit.
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### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/38 "2006-07-13T03:17:46Z")
> [@Sublight](#):
>
> Either Roger Ebert or some other film critic called this the “Designated Hero”. The character we’re supposed to support, but who’s only claim to actual heroism is that their name appears first in the credits. Also characters who do immoral, selfish or irresponsible things that are just waved away by the writer or director on the grounds that it’s ok because he’s the hero.
Superman!
Not that he isn’t a genuine hero in the latest movie. But my WORD, what a dick he was.
> [@](#):
>
> Now that I think of it, Julianne Moore seems to always give off “Designated Hero” vibes in everything she does. You just know that everyone that starts out on her side is going to get killed or treated like shit.
Can I get some examples? Because I don’t really see it for her in JPII. True, she participated in the incident with the baby T-Rex, but that was only after Nick had stupidly already committed her to it; I think she just thought that abandoning the baby was even a worse option than treating it, since they had irrevocably changed the parent Rexes perceived territory by moving it and placed human scent on it as well.
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### Author:  [@Othersider](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Othersider)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/39 "2006-07-13T03:18:05Z")
> [@Skald the Rhymer](#):
>
> That’s certainly what _I_ mean.
I nominate the following movies:
_What Lies Beneath_
and
_Memento_
and
_Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire_
Is that what you mean?
And, on the flipside, there’s
_Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban_
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### Author:  [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)
#### Post date: [July 13, 2006, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/40 "2006-07-13T05:23:38Z")
> [@Sublight](#):
>
> Either Roger Ebert or some other film critic called this the “Designated Hero”. The character we’re supposed to support, but who’s only claim to actual heroism is that their name appears first in the credits.
It seems to be from [Jabootu](http://www.jabootu.com/glossary.htm). One of their prime examples of this was…you guessed it…in their review of [_The Lost World._](http://www.jabootu.com/lostworldnugget.htm)
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