# When the hero is actually the villain (spoilers for Jurassic Park II & other movies)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [July 12, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202 "2006-07-12T17:40:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 11
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/61 "2006-07-14T16:27:45Z")
> [@mr. jp](#):
>
> Right, I withdraw that one.
>
> I still must comment on this
>
> So you think war can be justified from both sides? That sure is a pro-war sentiment.
Well in grown up land, war can be justified by both sides. Doesn’t mean YOU have to agree with both sides.
That’s not a pro war sentiment, that’s just the way the world and history works.
So should Great Britain have just said “All right, nice knowing you.” when the American colonies (whose citizens weren’t even completely FOR rebellion in the first place) declared independence? How does that make any sense from Englands side?
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### Author:  [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2006, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/62 "2006-07-14T22:04:13Z")
Of course they should!
Imagine that you were an English citizen. You would be forced to fight, and risk your life for this cause. Would that be something you would interested in? I sure wouldnt.
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### Author:  [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2006, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/63 "2006-07-14T22:28:46Z")
Well you might not want to, but not everyone would feel the same way. And the government certianly didn’t.
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### Author:  [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)
#### Post date: [July 14, 2006, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/64 "2006-07-14T23:43:43Z")
> [@ArchiveGuy](#):
>
> Plus she kills her sister as soon as she arrives in Oz.
Honestly now. That was a pure accident. As for the WWot West, yeah that was a case of the Designated Villain. She didn’t even do anything to avenge her sister’s death, and she could legitimately claim the ruby slippers as being her property, as the next of kin of the Witch of the East. Still, I’d lay the blame down in front of the Wizard of Oz. He blackmailed a _child_ into killing one of his rivals, and he didn’t even have the means to make good on his promises. Yet this is all handwaved away. Glinda doesn’t escape blame either. She put the ruby slippers on Dorothy’s feet, and made it so Dorothy couldn’t take them off. This was done specifically so Dorothy wouldn’t just give the slippers to the witch to avoid any trouble with her. And for all this, we never really find out why the slippers are so damned important. What would have happened if the Witch of the West had gotten them? The Witch of the East had owned them for who-knows-how-long, so they couldn’t be as powerful as all of that.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> The Third Rambo movie? I mean - the mujaheedin go on to become the Taliban, don’t they? Hell, OBL was one. Rambo ultimately allowed 9/11 to happen!
I see your point, but I’d consider this to be a case of irony. The poor, downtrodden people that Rambo was trying to help turned out to be nasty bastards who we really should have left under the Soviet boot.
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### Author:  [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2006, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/65 "2006-07-15T03:02:01Z")
> [@Diceman](#):
>
> I see your point, but I’d consider this to be a case of irony. The poor, downtrodden people that Rambo was trying to help turned out to be nasty bastards who we really should have left under the Soviet boot.
The possiblity that they might address this in Rambo 4 is the only reason at all I’m interested in the project.
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### Author:  [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2006, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/66 "2006-07-15T17:28:25Z")
> [@Push You Down](#):
>
> The possiblity that they might address this in Rambo 4 is the only reason at all I’m interested in the project.
Yes I am sure it will be full of deep thoughts on the world situation.
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### Author:  [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)
#### Post date: [July 15, 2006, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/67 "2006-07-15T19:51:29Z")
There’s **The Mosquito Coast.** Sure, he was a tad obsessive in the beginning, but you were rooting or him. By the end, you wanted to drown his ass in the Amazon.
Also, I love **The Fly** (Cronenberg version) because by the end, Seth becomes the bad guy (bad fly?), and Stathis (who was a self-serving, womanizing dick at the beginning) comes in at the end (sacrificing his foot and hand) to save the day. A nice switch-er-oo between the “Hero” and the “Villain”.
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### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2006, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/68 "2006-07-17T14:40:16Z")
> [@Push You Down](#):
>
> Well in grown up land, war can be justified by both sides. Doesn’t mean YOU have to agree with both sides.
> That’s not a pro war sentiment, that’s just the way the world and history works.
>
> So should Great Britain have just said “All right, nice knowing you.” when the American colonies (whose citizens weren’t even completely FOR rebellion in the first place) declared independence? How does that make any sense from Englands side?
Particularly since a bunch of the rebellion leaders were themselves smugglers and other forms of criminals… one interpretation of the Boston Tea Party wasn’t that they objected that strongly to the tax on tea, it was that they had warehouses full of smuggled tea they couldn’t sell without tax stamps on it… so they drowned all the legal tea, and suddenly they had a market for black-market tea.
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### Author:  [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/69 "2006-07-17T15:09:10Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#):
>
> Particularly since a bunch of the rebellion leaders were themselves smugglers and other forms of criminals… one interpretation of the Boston Tea Party wasn’t that they objected that strongly to the tax on tea, it was that they had warehouses full of smuggled tea they couldn’t sell without tax stamps on it… so they drowned all the legal tea, and suddenly they had a market for black-market tea.
Can I get a cite for that? 'Tis an interesting theory.
(And no, Wikipedia doesn’t count.) 😉
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### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2006, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/70 "2006-07-17T15:20:40Z")
> [@Skald the Rhymer](#):
>
> Can I get a cite for that? 'Tis an interesting theory.
>
> (And no, Wikipedia doesn’t count.) 😉
Whoops. Looks like I had it [backward.](http://www.let.rug.nl/~usa/E/teaparty/bostonxx.htm) The East India Company got permission to import tea without paying tax on it, and sell it for lower than the North American importers, who had paid tax on their tea. So, the rebels were still destroying legally-imported tea, but rather than convincing people to buy illegally-imported tea, they were trying to make them buy their own more expensive but legally-imported tea.
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### Author:  [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)
#### Post date: [July 17, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-hero-is-actually-the-villain-spoilers-for-jurassic-park-ii-other-movies/364202/71 "2006-07-17T15:42:59Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#):
>
> Captain Kirk once abandoned a couple of crewmembers on a planet while he went off the save the universe.
:dubious:
In one episode the crew responsible for beaming down a pair of redshirts were fooled (by a psychic) into dumping them into space instead of a planet’s surface. Its one of those episodes where Kirk actually seems to give a damn about them 😃
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