# When the pedants go too far

**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [February 20, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781 "2009-02-20T22:04:26Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1

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### Author: ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/1 "2009-02-20T22:04:26Z")

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One of the biggest things that irks me on this board is the arrogant prescriptivist pedantry on display, even when respectable dictionaries contradict a claim. (dictionaries by their nature are descriptivist, but if the prescriptivist-language pedants have a bible, I don’t know what else it would be, so that’s why I am using one to back up my claims here)

For example, from [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=507239):

> [@Simple factual errors that drive you nuts](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-factual-errors-that-drive-you-nuts/486504/65):
>
> 1. As you mentioned, decimated is used wrong (means to reduce by 1/10.)

[Here’s the dictionary definition of decimate](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/decimate). Please note:

> [@M-W](#):
>
> 3 a: to reduce drastically especially in number \<cholera decimated the population\>  
> b: to cause great destruction or harm to \<firebombs decimated the city\> \<an industry decimated by recession\>

There is no “wrong” about it. Yes, decimate does mean to reduce by 1/10th, and that is the linguistic origin of the word. But it is overwhelmingly used in this alternate sense, therefore the definition, by definition of a definition, _is that of how it is used in English-language culture_.

Another [example](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=500975&page=3):

> [@Name a word that doesn't mean what most people think it means](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/name-a-word-that-doesnt-mean-what-most-people-think-it-means/480523/101):
>
> \*Effete \*- means lacking in vigour, exhausted, sterile. The “effeminate” meaning is a modern nuisance.

I’m sorry you think the fact that a word doesn’t mean today the exact same thing you were used to having it mean in the 1800s is a “nuisance”, but the definition of [effete](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/effete) includes:

> [@M-W](#):
>
> 3: effeminate 1 \<a good-humored, effete boy brought up by maiden aunts — Herman Wouk\>

My last exhibit, from [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=497327), is **Shayna** ’s post (#3):

> [@I pit recycling snobs](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/i-pit-recycling-snobs/477010/3):
>
> You’re already better than her, just for knowing how to use ‘myriad’ correctly in a sentence. Go You! 😃

(she is referring to the OP’s use of myriad as an adjective, instead of a noun, implying that only the adjective form is “correct”)

This one I especially take great joy in pointing out because [Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myriad) found it worthy of a special footnote:

> [@M-W](#):
>
> **usage** Recent criticism of the use of myriad as a noun, both in the plural form myriads and in the phrase a myriad of, seems to reflect a mistaken belief that the word was originally and is still properly only an adjective. As the entries here show, however, the noun is in fact the older form, dating to the 16th century. The noun myriad has appeared in the works of such writers as Milton (plural myriads) and Thoreau (a myriad of), and it continues to occur frequently in reputable English. There is no reason to avoid it.

Speaks for itself. Fucking _Thoreau_ used it as a noun. Eat shit, pedants.

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### Author: ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/2 "2009-02-20T22:08:56Z")

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Your OP was awful.

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### Author: ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/3 "2009-02-20T22:12:11Z")

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I confess, I was going to express a little rec-rage over the _decimate_ issue myself. Words mean what they mean, not what they used to mean, and meanings change over time.

It’s the burden of a living language, I guess.

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### Author: ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/4 "2009-02-20T22:39:04Z")

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> [@5-4-Fighting](#):
>
> Your OP was awful.

I thought it was incredible.

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### Author: ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/5 "2009-02-20T22:43:53Z")

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> [@pravnik](#):
>
> I thought it was incredible.

Well, the meaning of both words has changed a lot since they first came into usage.

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### Author: ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/6 "2009-02-20T22:44:57Z")

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> [@KneadToKnow](#):
>
> Well, the meaning of both words has changed a lot since they first came into usage.

W[sup]2[/sup]\*

- Whoosh squared.

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### Author: ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/7 "2009-02-20T22:47:30Z")

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Expand the OP to apply to most usage of Latin in Modern English. It doesn’t matter how Cicero pronounced it, or how Nero declined it, or what Cato thought the plural was. It’s a word in _English_ now, and we can do with it what we will. That means applying Greek plural rules to Latin roots if we wish. So there!

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### Author: ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/8 "2009-02-20T22:49:28Z")

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I read some treatise on the human mind which suggested men (on the average) tended to have a larger vocabulary than women, but (in general) used it more prescriptively. Words, as used by men, tend to have fewer alternate uses. Women, by contrast, (usually) tease a wider range of subtleties from their smaller vocabulary by qualifying words words with varying tones, emphases, and contexts. I wonder, therefore, how many of these pedants of whom you speak are male.

Prescriptive language use is a futile goal unless you wish your _salary_ to be paid in salt.

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### Author: ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/9 "2009-02-20T22:49:40Z")

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> [@silenus](#):
>
> Expand the OP to apply to most usage of Latin in Modern English. It doesn’t matter how Cicero pronounced it, or how Nero declined it, or what Cato thought the plural was. It’s a word in _English_ now, and we can do with it what we will. That means applying Greek plural rules to Latin roots if we wish. So there!

You probably learned that from television.

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### Author: ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/10 "2009-02-20T23:02:49Z")

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I just wanna say…

“Fucking _Thoreau_!”

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### Author: ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/11 "2009-02-20T23:10:09Z")

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The whole decimate thing wouldn’t bother me so much if we didn’t have the word devastate, which does mean what they’re using decimate to mean and sounds so much alike that I can’t imagine why anyone would use decimate to mean devastate unless they were trying for something that sounded more obscure and erudite.

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### Author: ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/12 "2009-02-20T23:12:58Z")

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Regarding the OP: “Rigamarole” is wrong; it should be “Rigmarole.” 😃

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### Author: ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/13 "2009-02-20T23:15:56Z")

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> [@3trew](#):
>
> The whole decimate thing wouldn’t bother me so much if we didn’t have the word devastate, which does mean what they’re using decimate to mean and sounds so much alike that I can’t imagine why anyone would use decimate to mean devastate unless they were trying for something that sounded more obscure and erudite.

Decimate and devastate are hardly synonymous, at least not the way they’re commonly used.

“Half of the army was decimated; those who survived were devastated.”

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### Author: ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/14 "2009-02-20T23:24:03Z")

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> [@panache45](#):
>
> Decimate and devastate are hardly synonymous, at least not the way they’re commonly used.
> 
> “Half of the army was decimated; those who survived were devastated.”

The city of New Orleans was seriously emotionally upset by Hurricane Katrina?

I know that, penultimately, the campaign to save decimate is a fight I’m going to loose. You can’t verse change. Still, it’s a cheap hobby and gets me in less trouble than correcting apostrophe usage on store signs with a Sharpie.

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### Author: ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/15 "2009-02-20T23:37:36Z")

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“Decimate” needs to be saved? From who, the Visigoths?

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### Author: ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/16 "2009-02-20T23:41:14Z")

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Mostly the Ostrogoths.

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### Author: ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/17 "2009-02-20T23:41:26Z")

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> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#):
>
> “Decimate” needs to be saved? From who, the Visigoths?

Surely the Visigoths have already decimated our culture to shambles.

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### Author: ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/18 "2009-02-20T23:45:30Z")

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> [@Fish](#):
>
> I read some treatise on the human mind which suggested men (on the average) tended to have a larger vocabulary than women, but (in general) used it more prescriptively. Words, as used by men, tend to have fewer alternate uses. Women, by contrast, (usually) tease a wider range of subtleties from their smaller vocabulary by qualifying words words with varying tones, emphases, and contexts. I wonder, therefore, how many of these pedants of whom you speak are male.

This is absolutely beautiful. Are you sure it wasn’t made up by someone just to yank a chain or two, or have academic standards dropped that far? I suppose (and fear) it was presented in good faith by people with limited understanding of neurology, linguistics, and gender differentiation.

> [@](#):
>
> Prescriptive language use is a futile goal unless you wish your _salary_ to be paid in salt.

The idea that salaries were _ever_ paid in salt is an old error indeed, dating back to Ancient Rome but not quite as ancient as the word itself. (I believe it was Pliny the Elder who originally made the mistake, since slavishly copied by people with even less sense than he.) The word refers to money given so the solider could buy salt, much like ‘pin money’ refers to money saved up so a housewife could buy pins.

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### Author: ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/19 "2009-02-20T23:57:34Z")

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> [@Derleth](#):
>
> This is absolutely beautiful. Are you sure it wasn’t made up by someone just to yank a chain or two, or have academic standards dropped that far?

Nope. I have no idea whether the science behind the statement is well-founded. Why? Are you in the habit of speaking only in truth handed down from above? Do you independently verify every statement you make with a peer-review board?

> [@](#):
>
> The idea that salaries were _ever_ paid in salt is an old error indeed, dating back to Ancient Rome but not quite as ancient as the word itself.

Did you read that somewhere by somebody just looking to yank your chain, or have your standards dropped that far? 😉

Whether salaries were ever paid in salt or not is immaterial. The general objection to prescriptivist language is that words change in meaning — sometimes we aren’t even sure _why_ words came into being, or where, although we think we do. Forcing conformity based on what any one person or even a group of people imagines a word _should mean_ is futile.

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### Author: ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)
#### Post date: [February 21, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/20 "2009-02-21T00:14:47Z")

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I’m probably one of the people the OP gets mad at, but the reason I try to drag language backwards is because it bugs me when there’s several good words that mean the different things, and they are slowly being smashed into meaning the same thing because of sloppy usage.  
I was waxing sarcastic about people who [use chastity, abstinence, and celibacy interchangeably](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10840217#post10840217) just other day.  
I’m not sorry and I won’t stop.

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