# When the pedants go too far **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 20, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781 "2009-02-20T22:04:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/21 "2009-02-21T00:26:00Z")
And I don’t care what anyone says, a vagina is not a vulva anymore than a mouth is a face. ---
**Author:** ![Uvula\_Donor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e19adc/32.png) [@Uvula\_Donor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uvula_Donor)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/22 "2009-02-21T00:28:32Z")
> [@3trew](#): > > I know that, penultimately, the campaign to save decimate is a fight I’m going to loose. You can’t verse change. I saw what you did there. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/23 "2009-02-21T00:29:17Z")
I’m still all pissed off about that buffalo thing. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/24 "2009-02-21T01:24:50Z")
> [@3trew](#): > > Mostly the Ostrogoths. **Oslo** is gonna be pissed. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/25 "2009-02-21T05:27:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > “Decimate” needs to be saved? From who, the Visigoths? The first time I’ve laughed in 24 hours. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/26 "2009-02-21T05:49:33Z")
The only one that chaps my ass is the use of literally to mean figuratively. I mean, what the hell? Can’t we have a word that literally means literally? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/27 "2009-02-21T06:12:35Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Nope. I have no idea whether the science behind the statement is well-founded. Why? Are you in the habit of speaking only in truth handed down from above? Do you independently verify every statement you make with a peer-review board? No, I’m merely easily amused by people who think gender differences are that simplistic and work that reliably in terms of linguistic usage. The folks at [Language Log](http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/) often have a field day with such things and I happen to be a fan of theirs, as you can verify with my usual contributions to linguistic threads. [This is an apt entry of theirs.](http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=467) [This is another, and explains my laugh reflex a little better.](http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=260) When the ‘science’ lives down to _those_ standards, it’s difficult to take the field at all seriously. > [@](#): > > Did you read that somewhere by somebody just looking to yank your chain, or have your standards dropped that far? 😉 Look in M-W or the OED. By all means don’t take my word for it. > [@](#): > > Whether salaries were ever paid in salt or not is immaterial [to this discussion] [snip] Yes, I do agree with this and everything beneath it. I was merely taking cheap shots where I found them. ---
**Author:** ![3trew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/13edae/32.png) [@3trew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3trew)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/28 "2009-02-21T07:03:37Z")
Our day will come. We may be nauseated by the nauseous usages, but our day will come. Each time an item is described as “pitch white”, each time something happens that was “literally impossible”, we are closer to the time when our day will come. Wherever he was all like and she was like all, we gather strength and take one step towards when our day will come. Though we lack leadership right now, times make the man and a Which (Wich?) Tyler will arise, and our day will come. Then, you will face the Pedant’s Revolt. Our day will have come. On that day, the current agenda is for us to briefly come together and mill around without opposition long enough to declare victory. At that point we will fall into factional infighting and make easy pickings for the billions of ESL speakers who have already, in the long run, probably made you descriptivists the Academie Francaise of the next century. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/29 "2009-02-21T07:12:28Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The only one that chaps my ass is the use of literally to mean figuratively. I mean, what the hell? Can’t we have a word that literally means literally? That used to really chap my ass as well. Truly made my blood boil. In fact, I would turn red with rage. “Non-figuratively” seems to serve perfectly fine to mean, well, non-figuratively. Even if we didn’t have a standard single-word expression for it, having to use a small phrase instead isn’t actually any skin off my nose. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/30 "2009-02-21T19:08:42Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Women, by contrast, (usually) tease a wider range of subtleties from their smaller vocabulary by qualifying words words with varying tones, emphases, and contexts. I wonder, therefore, how many of these pedants of whom you speak are male. Shakespeare created more of our modern idiom than anyone, you know. > [@Derleth](#): > > The idea that salaries were _ever_ paid in salt is an old error indeed, dating back to Ancient Rome but not quite as ancient as the word itself. (I believe it was Pliny the Elder who originally made the mistake, since slavishly copied by people with even less sense than he.) The word refers to money given so the solider could buy salt, much like ‘pin money’ refers to money saved up so a housewife could buy pins. Actually, it’s a reference to what it could be used for, not what it was suppose to be used for: it was the legionary’s complaint about the paucity of his salary. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/31 "2009-02-21T19:23:41Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Expand the OP to apply to most usage of Latin in Modern English. It doesn’t matter how Cicero pronounced it, or how Nero declined it, or what Cato thought the plural was. It’s a word in _English_ now, and we can do with it what we will. That means applying Greek plural rules to Latin roots if we wish. So there! That is a sin against God and man. Use the original rules, or use English rules, but don’t use anything else. That doesn’t make any damned sense. > [@Derleth](#): > > The idea that salaries were _ever_ paid in salt is an old error indeed, dating back to Ancient Rome but not quite as ancient as the word itself. (I believe it was Pliny the Elder who originally made the mistake, since slavishly copied by people with even less sense than he.) The word refers to money given so the solider could buy salt, much like ‘pin money’ refers to money saved up so a housewife could buy pins. Really? I’ve never heard this. Got a cite? > [@Lemur866](#): > > The only one that chaps my ass is the use of literally to mean figuratively. I mean, what the hell? Can’t we have a word that literally means literally? ‘Literally’ has been used as an intensifier for centuries. It’s not a new development. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/32 "2009-02-21T19:36:33Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > I’m probably one of the people the OP gets mad at, but the reason I try to drag language backwards is because it bugs me when there’s several good words that mean the different things, and they are slowly being smashed into meaning the same thing because of sloppy usage. > I was waxing sarcastic about people who [use chastity, abstinence, and celibacy interchangeably](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10840217#post10840217) just other day. Pointless pedantry. The term chastity, as originally used, has no bearing today since the concept for which it was intended to convey effectively no longer exists. Might as well use it for something else. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/33 "2009-02-22T00:18:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Really? I’ve never heard this. Got a cite? The OED, Merriam-Webster, and the [AHD](http://www.answers.com/salary) all agree with me. [This thread has a lot more evidence.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=382343&highlight=salary+pliny) ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/34 "2009-02-22T01:34:47Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > I’m sorry you think the fact that a word doesn’t mean today the exact same thing you were used to having it mean in the 1800s is a “nuisance”, but the definition of [effete](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/effete) includes: > 3: effeminate 1 \ Why you’re a regular little Spartacus, exerting all your might to throw off the choking chains of prescriptive pedantry. I remember the passage in _The Caine Mutiny_, and in order to set the record straight, there’s nothing about this character that is specifically effeminate. For those who don’t know the book, the reference is to a naval officer training school on the campus of Columbia University, and the character referred to is one of the guys who “bilged” (flunked out) partway through the program. Based on information we have, Merriam Webster notwithstanding, there’s nothing there to suggest that this character, whose appearance is among the most fleeting in all of fiction, actually is effeminate per se. Does he gesture animatedly with limp wrists? Does he skip downstairs to the mess hall holding his roommate’s hand? We don’t know because all we ever learn about him is that he is good natured and has been raised by maiden aunts. Sure, he may have been bereft of a father figure, and I don’t doubt that the author imagined him rather as a shy quiet unobtrusive type, rather than a macho action film hero type, but that doesn’t necessarily make him effeminate. The reason we are pedantic is that we care about the language. When words are misused in this way–and confusing one word for a similar but different word is undoubtedly the most common type of error–then one of the words is essentially lost. Now that everyone thinks “effete” means “effeminate”, we no longer have a word for “lacking in vigor, sterile”. If I want to communicate that idea, then I have to write out “lacking in vigor” or “sterile”. Nice going, you barbaric iconoclast, you ruined a perfectly good word. We already had a word for effeminate" – _effeminate_. Similarly we no longer have _flout_, or maybe it’s _flaunt_, I forget which one people use now. And usages like _penultimate_ to mean “extra special double-secret super-ultimate” are just stupid, being rooted in the foolish notion that an extra syllable or two will make you sound smart. We can’t stop language from changing, but we can certainly decry change which is the result of dumbing down and and which erodes the expressive power of English. And if a mistaken usage comes across as stupid and ill-educated, we call it for what it is. > [@](#): > > Eat shit, pedants. You eat double shit a zillion times over. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/35 "2009-02-22T01:41:55Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > Now that everyone thinks “effete” means “effeminate”, we no longer have a word for “lacking in vigor, sterile”. If I want to communicate that idea, then I have to write out “lacking in vigor” or “sterile”. Oh, the horror! > [@](#): > > Nice going, you barbaric iconoclast, you ruined a perfectly good word. We already had a word for effeminate" – _effeminate_. Yeah, and we already had and still have a word for “sterile” – _sterile_. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/36 "2009-02-22T01:46:25Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The only one that chaps my ass is the use of literally to mean figuratively. I mean, what the hell? Can’t we have a word that literally means literally? Sure, let’s use “[Physically](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=442135)”! ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/37 "2009-02-22T02:22:53Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > The reason we are pedantic is that we care about the language. No, you don’t. You care about being pedantic. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/38 "2009-02-22T03:25:12Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > Oh, the horror! > Yeah, and we already had and still have a word for “sterile” – _sterile_. But _effete_, in the sense of “sterile” is entirely negative. _Sterile_ can go either way depending on the context. I’m not denying your point completely, but just pointing out that there were different spins on the two words (or are still for us pedants). ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/39 "2009-02-22T03:27:55Z")
[Here, knock yourself out](http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/effete). ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/40 "2009-02-22T03:45:53Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > The reason we are pedantic is that we care about the language. And you think I don’t? I’m a writer. (I’m now collecting money for writing, albeit not enough to say I earn my living with it… yet) I love the English language for all its nuances, its grace, its vast scope of expression. I’m still learning new words on a near-daily basis. I’ve studied Latin and although I’m no linguist, it delights me to trace the etymologies of words I’ve been using all my life and see how they evolved. But the point is that they _evolve_. Here’s a passage from our very own Chaucer (from the prologue of _Canterbury Tales_): > [@Geoffrey Chaucer](#): > > He nevere yet no vileyne ne sayde > In all his lyf unto no maner wight. > He was a verray, parfit gentil knight. Note the first line - _multiple negatives_! Not to mention spelling that would likely get him laughed off the SDMB… Purists have been complaining about the imminent decay of their respective languages for thousands of years. But language is a living vehicle of human expression that has always managed to conquer those misguided attempts at prescription and I don’t see why you think you’re going to be successful now. Have I ever lamented witnessing the usage of a word slowly transform out of pure ignorance of its original intended meaning? Sure, absolutely. But there comes a point where you really need to give it up and just go with it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781.md?page=3)