# When the pedants go too far **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 20, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781 "2009-02-20T22:04:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/101 "2009-02-23T03:01:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Are you limiting your argument about “loss of precision” to one word–“literally”? What’s this supposed to mean? We’re talking about “literally”. I find it a problem and I explained why. I don’t need to go find a hundred other endangered words to illustrate this. > [@](#): > > [Better communicators than you have used the word in the way you hate](http://www.slate.com/id/2129105/). _shrug_ Appeals to authority don’t convince me; at least not a couple of isolated ones. > [@](#): > > Are you expanding it to a general degradation of our language? Nope, so can we dispense with that strawman? ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/102 "2009-02-23T03:05:26Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > _shrug_ Appeals to authority don’t convince me. I think perhaps you misunderstand the concept behind the [Appeal to Authority fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_Authority): > [@](#): > > On the other hand, arguments from authority are an important part of informal logic. Since we cannot have detailed knowledge of a great many topics, we must often rely on the judgments of those who do. There is no fallacy involved in simply arguing that the assertion made by an authority is true, in contrast to claiming that the authority is infallible in principle and can hence be exempted from criticism: It can be true, the truth can merely not be proven, or made probable by attributing it to the authority, and the assumption that the assertion was true might be subject to criticism and turn out to have actually been wrong. If a criticism appears that contradicts the authority’s statement, then merely the fact that the statement originated from the authority is not an argument for ignoring the criticism. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/103 "2009-02-23T03:09:20Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > As I said earlier, this has happened to me at least twice right here on the SDMB where we’re supposedly more literate than average. Can you provide at least one of these examples you’re talking about? I’ve never encountered an ambiguous use of “literally” in the wild. As my previous link points out, “literally” is a perfect word for describing doing something letter-by-letter. Using it to mean “actually” is a figurative use, and denies the speaker an adverb with which to describe how I’m teaching my low-IQ student to write his spelling words. Do language mavens not despair at this loss of precision in our language? Why not use words like “actually” and “really,” leaving “literally” to its beautifully precise meaning of “in a letter-by-letter fashion”? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/104 "2009-02-23T03:10:23Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > I think perhaps you misunderstand the concept behind the [Appeal to Authority fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_Authority): Nor does he understand what a strawman is: a strawman cannot appear in a non-rhetorical question that’s asked to clarify a position. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/105 "2009-02-23T04:40:16Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > One of the biggest things that irks me on this board is the arrogant prescriptivist pedantry on display… > \ > > Eat shit, pedants. Hear hear. Except that last part. Or unless I bring up something. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/106 "2009-02-23T04:55:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Can you provide at least one of these examples you’re talking about? I’ve never encountered an ambiguous use of “literally” in the wild. I’d prefer not to dig up the GD thread because I remember it turning ugly for other reasons. I’ll give the more lighthearted one instead. In a CS thread on “[What real people have been the most inaccurately maligned on film?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=309045&page=2)” I mentioned Richard Wagner in _Lisztomania_ (post #55), saying “although Richard Wagner certainly had his faults, he wasn’t _literally_ a blood-sucking Nazi” (emphasis in the original). A couple of posters responded by pointing out that Wagner was in fact anti-Semitic. I knew that. Everyone who knows anything about Wagner knows that. But _Lisztomania_ is a very odd movie, and it does not depict Wagner as simply an anti-Semite but rather as a Nazi AND a vampire. (He also builds a sort of Frankenstein monster at one point.) Now, I could have said “Wagner wasn’t a vampire in real life”, but since Wagner might _figuratively_ be called “a blood-sucking Nazi” (as in “an evil anti-Semite”) I thought I’d make a little joke. No one got it but **Sublight** , who was also familiar with the movie. Not a big deal, but I was surprised that my intended meaning was missed – especially since I’d put “literally” in italics and added the remark about Cosima’s voodoo doll to emphasize that _Lisztomania_ has supernatural elements. > [@](#): > > \*As my previous link points out, “literally” is a perfect word for describing doing something letter-by-letter. Using it to mean “actually” is a figurative use \*[No, it isn’t](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/literally). I have no problem with words being used figuratively anyway. It would be boring if they could not be. I just think it’s a shame that I apparently can’t expect to be understood if I use “literally” to mean “in a literal sense or manner: actually”. People will assume the word is only there for emphasis. As I said before, this is not an insurmountable barrier to effective communication, I just find it annoying. If _you_ don’t find it annoying then good for you. I’m not looking to change anyone’s mind here. I’m not even trying to stop people from using “literally” as an intensifier. I’m just explaining my opinion on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/107 "2009-02-23T12:01:12Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > In a CS thread on “[What real people have been the most inaccurately maligned on film?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=309045&page=2)” I mentioned Richard Wagner in _Lisztomania_ (post #55), saying “although Richard Wagner certainly had his faults, he wasn’t _literally_ a blood-sucking Nazi” (emphasis in the original). A couple of posters responded by pointing out that Wagner was in fact anti-Semitic. I just read that whole exchange, and I don’t think it was the word “literally” that caused the problem there: it’s that people didn’t realize you knew of Wagner’s anti-semitism. Had you said, “Although Wagner was horrifically anti-semitic, he wasn’t literally a blood-sucking Nazi,” I don’t think anything would’ve come of it. Not a single post suggests that people thought you were denying his figurative bloodsucking Nazihood. As for literal=letter-by-letter, I don’t know why you think your cite to the dictionary helps: are you whooshed, perhaps? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/108 "2009-02-23T12:57:10Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > I think perhaps you misunderstand the concept behind the [Appeal to Authority fallacy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_Authority): Alright, let me restate that just because James Fenimore Cooper and a few other authors also used “literally” to mean “figuratively” does not convince me that it’s worthy way to communicate. It only demonstrates that even famous people are prone to poor usage at times. James Fenimore Cooper? Honestly, people. [QUOTE=Left Hand of Dorkness] a strawman cannot appear in a non-rhetorical question that’s asked to clarify a position. [/quote] Claiming that the question was an innocent non-rhetorical question to clarify a position shows either dishonesty or willful obtuseness on your part, since I never said language in general was in state of decline, but specifically denied making such a claim. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/109 "2009-02-23T14:25:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Had you said, “Although Wagner was horrifically anti-semitic, he wasn’t literally a blood-sucking Nazi,” I don’t think anything would’ve come of it. If you mean you don’t think anyone would have “corrected” me then you’re probably right, but I don’t think the people who responded would have understood that I meant the movie fancifully depicted Wagner as a vampire who sometimes dressed in a Nazi uniform. Given the responses I got, I think they would have believed I meant something like “although Wagner was an anti-Semite, he wasn’t all that extreme.” > [@](#): > > \*Not a single post suggests that people thought you were denying his figurative bloodsucking Nazihood. \*Are you sure you read the thread? That’s exactly what people were suggesting. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/110 "2009-02-23T18:22:08Z")
**Left Hand of Dorkness** , before we go too far down the rabbit hole of nitpicking over the meaning of a four year old thread, may I ask what you are trying to accomplish here? Because if you are hoping that you are going to change my mind then you are wasting your time. I have known people to misunderstand how the word “literally” was being used, and I find the use of “literally” as an intensifier to be annoying. There is nothing you could say to change this. I am not going to be argued out of my personal experience or my opinions. I’m not looking to argue you out of yours, either. If you don’t share this particular pet peeve of mine then that’s lovely for you. If you are simply curious as to _why_ someone would dislike the use of “literally” as an intensifier then I believe I have already explained myself as best I can. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/111 "2009-02-23T22:11:27Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > James Fenimore Cooper? [Fenimore Cooper’s Literary Offenses, by Mark Twain](http://www.pbs.org/marktwain/learnmore/writings_fenimore.html) … 13. Use the right word, not its second cousin. … ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/112 "2009-02-23T23:03:43Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > **Left Hand of Dorkness** , before we go too far down the rabbit hole of nitpicking over the meaning of a four year old thread, may I ask what you are trying to accomplish here? I was curious to see an instance in the wild of “literally” being used ambiguously. The example you provided did not appear ambiguous to me; the rest of your post kind of was. That’s all. And **Cosmic** , if you want to interpret my question as obtuse, knock yourself out. It was asked honestly. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/113 "2009-02-24T01:13:59Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > Alright… You’re not very good at being a language pedant, are you? ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/114 "2009-02-24T04:01:32Z")
“Go too far”? What am I, a villain in a Mighty Mouse cartoon? ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781/115 "2009-02-24T13:48:29Z")
This post from Language Log today seems particularly relevant: [Some kind of grammar, um, strict police](http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=1173) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-pedants-go-too-far/486781.md?page=5)