# When the suburbs erupt into flames and violence - it was only inevitable.... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005 "2013-05-22T12:49:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/21 "2013-05-23T04:45:55Z")
oh no, I only have a 47% chance of life. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/22 "2013-05-23T06:15:56Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Have you heard of any place in the United States where the unemployment rate is 70%? There is at least one county that I know of that tries to survive like that. Sounds like a flyover county. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/23 "2013-05-23T06:32:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > When the founding fathers dumped tons of East India Company tea into Boston Harbor, were they criminals? Vandalism, manipulating the market to their own advantage - probably so, if one wants to be technical about it. > [@Magiver](#): > > oh no, I only have a 47% chance of life. Until someone opens the box. Then the wave function collapses and you’ll be either alive or dead. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/24 "2013-05-23T07:27:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Until someone opens the box. Then the wave function collapses and you’ll be either alive or dead. 😃 Wasn’t it decided that the whole collapse thing is just a fragment of our imagination? Or am I imagining that? No. Forget it. It’s better I don’t know. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/25 "2013-05-23T07:55:04Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > Now, are there any solid fact about these social “eruptions”. Yes, they all happen in areas with one or more severe social problems, low employment, low social mobility, poor relations between substantial parts of the population and authority figures, etc. > [@](#): > > People from the left often want to claim the very troublemakers to be the victims and are only doing what is right, and want to be hear. I’m sure you can find someone saying they’re only doing what’s right, but a more honest analysis would be that lots of people of various political opinions look at the aforementioned solid facts and discuss possible ways to change them. I suppose the rightmost view of those acknowledging reality would be that these factors aren’t the result of anything the government should have a hand in, or are the result of mishandling of immigration by the left, and that the only response should be hard and police based, but ignoring the underlying social factors completely is just daft. > [@](#): > > Would I be wrong to say that in the latest riots (lets say from 2000 and beyond), were instigated by opportun thugs, without any greater Cause (besides stealing Nikes). I don’t know. I suppose it’s possible, but that’s a different question than what fuels the rioters once it’s started. And it’s not like anyone is calling this an organised effort with a democratically agreed upon Cause. It’s not like the kids in Sweden are all part of “The movement to end racial profiling in Swedish suburbs by wild and random acts of vandalism”. You’re also begging the question of whether looting is a significant part of these riots. > [@](#): > > And that the police should just stomp em ouy like any other criminal activity. If you ignore every possible social factor leading up to these riots I suppose that could be a conclusion, but an obvious reality of these riots is they’re very difficult to “just stomp out”, so looking at other factors than “There just happens to be thousands of young men who like setting fires and stealing Nikes” seems a good additional approach. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/26 "2013-05-23T08:41:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Vague claims from anonymous “leftists”. Can you give us a specific example or cite? The Guardian got a lot of criticism after recent UK riots for “justifying” the looting and violence through socio-economic argument (not to say it’s not valid, but it pissed off a lot of people on the right). This is typical of the sort of comment from the British left… > [@](#): > > The policies of the past year may have clarified the division between the entitled and the dispossessed in extreme terms, but the context for social unrest cuts much deeper. […] Those condemning the events of the past couple of nights in north London and elsewhere would do well to take a step back and consider the bigger picture: a country in which the richest 10% are now 100 times better off than the poorest, where consumerism predicated on personal debt has been pushed for years as the solution to a faltering economy, and where, according to the OECD, social mobility is worse than any other developed country. > **[There is a context to London's riots that can't be ignored | Nina Power](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/context-london-riots)** > > Nina Power: Those condemning the events in north London and elsewhere would do well to take a step back and consider the bigger picture > [@](#): > > Consumer society relies on your ability to participate in it. So what we recognise as a consumer now was born out of shorter hours, higher wages and the availability of credit. If you’re dealing with a lot of people who don’t have the last two, that contract doesn’t work. They seem to be targeting the stores selling goods they would normally consume. **So perhaps [the looters] are rebelling against the system that denies its bounty to them because they can’t afford it.** > **[The UK riots: the psychology of looting | Zoe Williams](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/aug/09/uk-riots-psychology-of-looting)** > > Zoe Williams: The shocking acts of looting may not be political, but they nevertheless say something about the beaten-down lives of the rioters ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/27 "2013-05-23T08:50:12Z")
To be fair, a lot of Guardian commentary is just wank. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/28 "2013-05-23T09:08:51Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > To be fair, a lot of Guardian commentary is just wank. To be fair they do quote one looter saying “We’re not all gathering together for a cause, we’re running down Foot Locker.” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/29 "2013-05-23T10:54:15Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Have you heard of any place in the United States where the unemployment rate is 70%? There is at least one county that I know of that tries to survive like that. I think the life expectancy is something like 47%. In America. The land of plenty. If the unemployment rate in your county is 70%, that might be a good time to, you know, move to a different county. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/30 "2013-05-23T10:56:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > If the unemployment rate in your county is 70%, that might be a good time to, you know, move to a different county. That assumes that they can afford to move. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/31 "2013-05-23T12:07:46Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > When the suburbs erupt into flames and violence, the rioters must be really, really **determined.** A riot is really an on-foot kinda thing; hard to carry it off in a neighborhood not built to walkable scale. Maybe we can apply for some government subsidies to put in a light rail system, or at least run a shuttle bus service for the rioters. ---
**Author:** ![GomiBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@GomiBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GomiBoy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/32 "2013-05-23T12:17:14Z")
The London Riots started from a cause - the shooting of a black man by Metropolitan Police officers in Tottenham. The initial riot / march was because of a community outraged by a perceived evil against one of their own (albeit a drug dealer, who as far as the evidence points was on his way, with a gun, to kill someone over a debt) Don’t forget, being black in London used to be a crime not all that long ago, at least according to how the Met policed back then. Institutional racism of the Met has a long history, and is only recently kinda-sorta being fixed. It’s not surprising that the community reacted with rage against this perceived repeat of the bad old days. The ongoing riots then became something else, became simple criminal mischief by a minority of younger people and opportunistic looting of shops and stores, but it did require a spark. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/33 "2013-05-23T14:06:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That assumes that they can afford to move. The fact of the matter is, sometimes towns just die. This isn’t a sign that something is wrong - it’s just the way things work. The only thing you can do is gather your things and start anew somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/34 "2013-05-23T16:03:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Vague claims from anonymous “leftists”. Can you give us a specific example or cite? I can as an objective bystander confirm that there is a leftist narrativa simmilar to what he describes, and that sometimes these events are used by people who represent the left. I happen to sympathize with the former, but don’t agree with the latter. Basically I like the people who do it and agree with the intentions (making a better world…), but I don’t think that perspective brings any solutions. In fact I think it is often counter productive when it comes to how we organisa our physical enviroment. The good intention of providing affordable housing solved the housing problem, but also created the ghettos. The mechanics behind that are not described accurately in ideological statements, at least not according to me. I think there is a scientific analysis that explains it better, I just wish to understand it. added on edit: If my word is not good enough I can link to several statements, blog posts etc from Swedish politicians in the Socialist party. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/35 "2013-05-23T16:12:49Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That assumes that they can afford to move. Afford to move? How they hell can they afford to stay? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/36 "2013-05-23T17:33:08Z")
> [@GomiBoy](#): > > The London Riots started from a cause - the shooting of a black man by Metropolitan Police officers in Tottenham. The initial riot / march was because of a community outraged by a perceived evil against one of their own (albeit a drug dealer, who as far as the evidence points was on his way, with a gun, to kill someone over a debt) > > Don’t forget, being black in London used to be a crime not all that long ago, at least according to how the Met policed back then. Institutional racism of the Met has a long history, and is only recently kinda-sorta being fixed. It’s not surprising that the community reacted with rage against this perceived repeat of the bad old days. > > The ongoing riots then became something else, became simple criminal mischief by a minority of younger people and opportunistic looting of shops and stores, but it did require a spark. Are you saying this is like the Rodney King riots? ---
**Author:** ![April\_R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3da27b/32.png) [@April\_R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/April_R)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/37 "2013-05-23T17:35:18Z")
> [@scamartistry](#): > > The riots were defended by misc leftist - they were always very quick to find a social cause and a justifier. I.e " its bad to burn cars - but that is what they had to do in order to get heard" vs “lets get som free Nikes!” Is English your first language?:dubious: I only ask because your posts are hard to read. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/38 "2013-05-23T18:38:06Z")
I think there is a difference between saying that the rioting was a natural consequence of the suppression of the masses, versus saying it was morally justified. As an example if you start insulting a drunk burly biker dude, and get punched in the face, I wouldn’t say that the biker was justified in punching you, but I might say that it was a natural consequence of your behavior. Note: I’m not taking one side of the other on the whether or not rioting is in fact a natural consequence of suppression, I’m just trying to outline the distinction, between moral justification and natural consequence. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/39 "2013-05-23T20:10:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The fact of the matter is, sometimes towns just die. This isn’t a sign that something is wrong - it’s just the way things work. The only thing you can do is gather your things and start anew somewhere else. What causes cities to thrive or fail is not inexplicable, but a scientific area that has been researched for a long time. Just because most people do not understand it, doesn’t mean it can’t be explained. It just happens to be very complex processes. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2013, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005/40 "2013-05-23T21:22:59Z")
I suppose Righties gotta go to war and bomb some foreign little brown people on a total pretence or power steal, and Lefties gotta do it at home. Passports, its all down to passports [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-the-suburbs-erupt-into-flames-and-violence-it-was-only-inevitable/659005.md?page=3)