# "When to out a transgender dater" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 14, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682 "2010-07-14T17:45:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/81 "2010-07-16T23:17:56Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > **Bosstone** , how on Earth will someone’s partner never know? Ever hear of [Billy Tipton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Tipton)? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/82 "2010-07-16T23:56:48Z")
> [@umop\_ap\_sdn](#): > > So should transgenders avoid the Orthodox community altogether? As a Conservadox Jew, that’s what I’d recommend. Important Note- The general consensus among Orthodox sages is that there is no such thing as transsexedness. Trans people are just insane and the surgery is just mutilation. Also note that intentionally making yourself sterile, as SRS does, means that under Jewish law you can NEVER marry. So, even if your Orthodox partner is okay with it (the odds are vastly against this), no Orthodox rabbi who is respected by the community (and a rabbi who is not respected by the community is just a scholar- if even that) will perform your marriage. Re Telling Other People If I found out that one of my friends was dating a transperson without knowing it, I’d have a conversation with the transperson. By keeping silent, I may well be betraying my friend. By speaking out, I am putting the transperson in harm’s way. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/83 "2010-07-17T01:10:44Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > **Bosstone** , how on Earth will someone’s partner never know? Setting aside any physical matters (potential shortcomings of surgeries, unchangeable features like hand size, etc.), is it possible that the partner will never, ever meet someone who knew the person before they transitioned (including any and all family members) who might mention it, come across any old photographs or memorabilia, or see a piece of mail from a mailing list that still has the person’s old name? It is _very_ possible. The person might be estranged from their family, who couldn’t come to grips with the person’s needs. The family might have embraced the transition wholeheartedly, and everyone is comfortable treating the person as their corrected gender. Seeing photographs, memorabilia, old mail is completely avoidable with care. As for physicality, there’s plenty of normal women who are already pretty damn masculine, and plenty of normal men who are fairly feminine. There’s a wide grey area of androgyny that a TG person can comfortably live in. I aided my own TG friend through transition, so I saw her before and after. You simply could not tell she was the same person, and anyone and everyone who’s met her after transition has assumed she’s female without a second thought. I believe it’s something important to tell one’s significant other, but then I believe there should be no secrets between couples. As for when, honestly I think that just comes down to a case-by-case basis. Everyone is different. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/84 "2010-07-17T02:00:26Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > Cite please. As if the movie “Boys Don’t Cry” wasn’t enough. > **[List of people killed for being transgender](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people)** > > This is a worldwide list of people who were killed for being transgender. The list does not include suicides, accidental deaths, or premature deaths. Some of the perpetrators in these cases cite the trans panic defense. Violence against transgender people is also known as trans bashing. > The murder of trans people has served as an impetus to the establishment of the Transgender Day of Remembrance (TDoR). > In 2019, the American Medical Association called the violence against trans people an "e... Gwen Araujo and Brandon Teena are two examples of people killed when their transgendered status became known. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/85 "2010-07-17T02:35:57Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > To be honest, yes. It would be one thing if one had been born into such a community, and had strong ties to it, but why would any person choose to join a committee that he or she knows will reject him or her? Even setting aside dating/marriage/family (almost impossible to do in the Orthodox community, where anybody who is single above their mid-twenties is generally very stressed about it and is inevitably the object of much pity, there’s no concept whatsoever of being childless by choice, and communities are built around the family unit), there is no way that a transgender person would ever be accepted at all. Orthodox Judaism doesn’t recognize the concept of a gender identity different from one’s birth characteristics, and doesn’t make any accommodations for transgender folk. > > We’re fast approaching sunset-on-Friday, that time when all the _really_ good discussions about Judaism here really get going, so au revoir! Bravo for diplomacy, that is much more polite than I would have phrased it. My position this, if an individual knows that some characteristic of themselves whether it is sex, religion, race, orientation, etc., would not be appreciated or even accepted by another segment of the population, why go among them when there are so many other alternatives. It’s not as if there aren’t communities and cultures that openly embace the TG. You don’t have to love everybody, you just have leave other people alone if what they’re doing doesn’t affect you. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/86 "2010-07-17T02:36:02Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > As a Conservadox Jew, that’s what I’d recommend. > > Important Note- The general consensus among Orthodox sages is that there is no such thing as transsexedness. Trans people are just insane and the surgery is just mutilation. Also note that intentionally making yourself sterile, as SRS does, means that under Jewish law you can NEVER marry. > > So, even if your Orthodox partner is okay with it (the odds are vastly against this), no Orthodox rabbi who is respected by the community (and a rabbi who is not respected by the community is just a scholar- if even that) will perform your marriage. > > Re Telling Other People > > If I found out that one of my friends was dating a transperson without knowing it, I’d have a conversation with the transperson. By keeping silent, I may well be betraying my friend. By speaking out, I am putting the transperson in harm’s way. This makes sense. What I was trying to ask upthread was (assuming that he wasn’t) why would this woman have been dating a man who was not also orthodox? Would she be assuming that he would convert if things went well? If that’s the case it seems like there might be a whole list of deal breakers for any man she dates, right? Would she out a guy who had some other issue that meant he wasn’t right for marriage? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/87 "2010-07-17T02:41:57Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > If the partner would never have known without being told, I don’t see how. By that logic, infidelity isn’t really infidelity if the other pesron never finds out. You basically seem to be saying that lying is only wrong if the other person finds out. I think the chances are very low that the other person will never find out, by the way. I mean, come on, is the TG going to hide every aspect of his/her prior history, childhood, family, etc. for the rest of their lives? There’s always going to at least the _chance_ and then there’s going to be a lot of hurt and betrayed feelings. Frankly, I don’t see how anyone can be fooled by a MTF for more than 10 minutes anyway. I can always tell pretty much immediately. I don’t know how realistic the artificial junk is, but I doubt it’s exactly the same either. I don’t mean that to sound derisive. As hackneyed as it sounds, one of my best friends of 20 years is a MTF transexual. I knew her for years and years as a scruffy, tattooed, Harley riding heavy metal bass player before she came out to me and transitioned (all but the snip). I’ve been as supportive and encouraging as I can be, but she’s still pretty obviously a tranny. I have a hard time believing that even the most feminine ones can be convincing indefinitely, especially in intimate situations. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/88 "2010-07-17T02:47:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Frankly, I don’t see how anyone can be fooled by a MTF for more than 10 minutes anyway. How do you confirm your decision? Ask them? There will always be transpeople who don’t look it AND don’t tell you, as well as cisgendered people who look trans to you. > [@](#): > > I’ve been as supportive and encouraging as I can be, but she’s still pretty obviously a tranny. I know you meant no offense, but that word is pretty much hate speech. Please do not use it in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/89 "2010-07-17T02:51:30Z")
The fact that you call it outing reveals more about you than you might think. Whether a person was a man or woman in the past is their business. If they want to tell you about it in the interest of maintaining or creating a romantic relationship that’s their choice but to act like they’re hiding something from you is petty and stupid. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/90 "2010-07-17T02:52:48Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > This makes sense. > > What I was trying to ask upthread was (assuming that he wasn’t) why would this woman have been dating a man who was not also orthodox? Would she be assuming that he would convert if things went well? > > If that’s the case it seems like there might be a whole list of deal breakers for any man she dates, right? Would she out a guy who had some other issue that meant he wasn’t right for marriage? That would depend on the person and the culture. My own cultural background has many similiarities with Orthodox Judaism (and even more with the ultra-Orthodox sects) than either group would probably care to admit. In all cases dating is not done for fun. It’s for very serious mate selection and family and community input is expected, respected, and considered. Back when I was single most of what would have been a deal breaker for me in a potential husband would have been a deal breaker for every other eligible female in the community and the women share information. The men do too of course. It saves time and effort. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/91 "2010-07-17T02:56:01Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > How do you confirm your decision? Ask them? I don’t need to confirm it. I already know. The friend I told you about has TG friends, and they are pretty obviously TG. I’ve also seen TG people I don’t know, of course, but I can still tell immediately. I don’t need to ask them because I can already tell. > [@](#): > > There will always be transpeople who don’t look it AND don’t tell you I’ve never seen one. > [@](#): > > I know you meant no offense, but that word is pretty much hate speech. Please do not use it in the future. My tranny friends use it all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/92 "2010-07-17T02:59:13Z")
You’ve never seen a transgender person who could pass? Could that be because they’re, oh, passing? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/93 "2010-07-17T02:59:40Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > My tranny friends use it all the time. Yes, and black people use the N word with impunity. Same deal here. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/94 "2010-07-17T02:59:55Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > The fact that you call it outing reveals more about you than you might think. Whether a person was a man or woman in the past is their business. If they want to tell you about it in the interest of maintaining or creating a romantic relationship that’s their choice but to act like they’re hiding something from you is petty and stupid. Not if they want to have a relationship with you. If they don’t tell the people they fuck what their genetic gnder is, then they are indeed hiding something, and I still maintain that it’s disingenuous to pretend otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/95 "2010-07-17T03:02:10Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > You’ve never seen a transgender person who could pass? Could that be because they’re, oh, passing? I’ve wondered that myself, but I doubt it. The voice, especially, is always giveaway to me. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/96 "2010-07-17T03:03:13Z")
Uh huh, well this has been a fulfilling conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/97 "2010-07-17T03:14:44Z")
Sorry. I am completely supportive of and sympathetic to TG people and to their rights. I know what they go through. But I’m not going to be all PC and say I can’t tell when I can. I’m willing to concede that I’ve walked by some convincing ones without knowing the difference, but any extended contact, especially if I hear them talking, always tips it to me. No matter how many hormones they take, the voice never really gets all the way female. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/98 "2010-07-17T03:47:53Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > That would depend on the person and the culture. My own cultural background has many similiarities with Orthodox Judaism (and even more with the ultra-Orthodox sects) than either group would probably care to admit. In all cases dating is not done for fun. It’s for very serious mate selection and family and community input is expected, respected, and considered. Back when I was single most of what would have been a deal breaker for me in a potential husband would have been a deal breaker for every other eligible female in the community and the women share information. The men do too of course. It saves time and effort. Ok, so you’re saying not being orthodox wouldn’t necessarily be an automatic deal breaker? I guess what has me curious is that I’m assuming he had at least some idea that this information would make a relationship with him a no go for her. In another situation where dating is much more casual I can see having a few dates before feeling safe enough to share, but in this situation where both people have an understanding that this is not just some casual coffee…why even bother asking her out if you already know that the community she belongs to won’t be accepting? It just seems like maybe he set himself up for a rough situation, or maybe she did…I don’t know. Unless this was a blind date there should have been some clarity of expectations before the date was even set. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/99 "2010-07-17T18:35:48Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > Ok, so you’re saying not being orthodox wouldn’t necessarily be an automatic deal breaker? > > I guess what has me curious is that I’m assuming he had at least some idea that this information would make a relationship with him a no go for her. In another situation where dating is much more casual I can see having a few dates before feeling safe enough to share, but in this situation where both people have an understanding that this is not just some casual coffee…why even bother asking her out if you already know that the community she belongs to won’t be accepting? > > It just seems like maybe he set himself up for a rough situation, or maybe she did…I don’t know. Unless this was a blind date there should have been some clarity of expectations before the date was even set. If the woman was a devote Orthodox Jew not being of the same religion or being unwilling to convert would be an absolute a dealbreaker. In my opinion TG person in the intial situation was simply being a jerk. There is no way the TG could not have known their TG status would make them unacceptable to a Orthodox woman and trying to date her in deception was slimy behavior of the highest order. Where I the Orthodox woman in this situation, I would have outed this person, probably quite publically and visciously, for the same reasons I would out a married man pretending to be single trying to date women in my community. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/100 "2010-07-17T19:29:11Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > If the woman was a devote Orthodox Jew not being of the same religion or being unwilling to convert would be an absolute a dealbreaker. In my opinion TG person in the intial situation was simply being a jerk. There is no way the TG could not have known their TG status would make them unacceptable to a Orthodox woman and trying to date her in deception was slimy behavior of the highest order. Where I the Orthodox woman in this situation, I would have outed this person, probably quite publically and visciously, for the same reasons I would out a married man pretending to be single trying to date women in my community. That’s kind of it. In a different community, the rules would be different. In this particular community, this particular man has no reason to date. Dating at all is a deception. And married is a good analogy for me. MOST people would not knowingly date a married man. We can say “well, its his business if he is married or not” but its a cultural no-no to date a married man (unless, perhaps, he’s in an open marriage, and even then, being upfront from day one is considered the right thing to do). And him not telling you he is married up front is a deception - even if its an open marriage. If he wants to date, he needs to not be Orthodox. If he wants to remain Orthodox, he needs to stay single. It is also possible that she was wrong. It seems unlikely he could have converted in this situation, so either he managed to convert and no one noticed, he didn’t actually convert and simply lied to get accepted into the community (I converted in a different city), or she is wrong. Which is one of the reasons its a bad idea to publicly out someone - probably the biggest reason - sometimes you misread the signs. But that really isn’t the question being posed - which assumes he is transgendered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682.md?page=6)