# "When to out a transgender dater" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 14, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682 "2010-07-14T17:45:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![chizzuk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e36b37/32.png) [@chizzuk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chizzuk)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/101 "2010-07-17T19:57:01Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > That’s kind of it. In a different community, the rules would be different. In this particular community, this particular man has no reason to date. Dating at all is a deception. And married is a good analogy for me. MOST people would not knowingly date a married man. We can say “well, its his business if he is married or not” but its a cultural no-no to date a married man (unless, perhaps, he’s in an open marriage, and even then, being upfront from day one is considered the right thing to do). And him not telling you he is married up front is a deception - even if its an open marriage. > > If he wants to date, he needs to not be Orthodox. If he wants to remain Orthodox, he needs to stay single. > > It is also possible that she was wrong. It seems unlikely he could have converted in this situation, so either he managed to convert and no one noticed, he didn’t actually convert and simply lied to get accepted into the community (I converted in a different city), or she is wrong. Which is one of the reasons its a bad idea to publicly out someone - probably the biggest reason - sometimes you misread the signs. But that really isn’t the question being posed - which assumes he is transgendered. Your last point is also a question I have. Having done some research into Orthodox conversion, I don’t see any way this person could have really converted Orthodox. Prospective converts are turned away for far, far less. Converts have a difficult enough time fitting in and being a transgender convert would mean total ostracism from Day One. No reputable beis din would put someone in that position, since they’d be very likely to go off the derech and stop being observant (which would be on the beis din’s collective head). Plus the convert would be violating multiple commandments on altering genitalia and cross-dressing from the get-go and, because according to halacha someone born a woman can NOT become a man, you would run into issues with thinking you had a minyan when really you didn’t, etc. I just can not see an Orthodox beis din ever doing this. Which means that the issue is now “This is a goy pretending to be Jewish.” Meaning you still have the minyan problem, possible invalid marriages, children thought to be born Jewish when really the mother isn’t so they aren’t either, treifing up the non-mevushal wine, etc. It would affect the whole community and they would need to know. Perhaps this person converted Reform and then moved and started living an Orthodox lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![tumbleddown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tumbleddown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tumbleddown)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/102 "2010-07-18T17:30:57Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > An Orthodox (and IIRC, Conservative) conversion for a man involves either circumcision or, if the man is already circumcised, hatafat dam brit, a symbolic drawing of a drop of blood from the tip of the penis. > [@chizzuk](#): > > Your last point is also a question I have. Having done some research into Orthodox conversion, I don’t see any way this person could have really converted Orthodox. Remember that everything we know about this man is based on his _one date_ with the woman who wrote the agony aunt letter, and her subsequent internet snooping. So hardly a clear picture. But in any case, I would suggest this: this man is not a convert at all, but was raised Orthodox in a community in another city, and can’t say so without revealing his trans\* status because of the obvious questions that would go along, or is and always has been Jewish, and has joined the Orthodox community recently (after transitioning) as a baal teshuvah. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Sorry. I am completely supportive of and sympathetic to TG people and to their rights. If that’s the case, then you’ll stop using an anti-trans slur, even if all your TG “friends” (who never pass to you, you can _always_ tell because you’re just so talented) use it. It’s not your word to reclaim, and its surely not yours to use, especially while simultaneously claiming to be “supportive.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/103 "2010-07-18T17:36:53Z")
I’ll say whatever I want. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/104 "2010-07-19T00:22:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’ll say whatever I want. Big shocker there. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/105 "2010-07-19T00:53:30Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Ever hear of [Billy Tipton](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Tipton)? Wow. Billy had sex with some seriously stupid women. ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/106 "2010-07-19T01:28:09Z")
> [@tumbleddown](#): > > Remember that everything we know about this man is based on his _one date_ with the woman who wrote the agony aunt letter, and her subsequent internet snooping. So hardly a clear picture. > > But in any case, I would suggest this: this man is not a convert at all, but was raised Orthodox in a community in another city, and can’t say so without revealing his trans\* status because of the obvious questions that would go along, or is and always has been Jewish, and has joined the Orthodox community recently (after transitioning) as a baal teshuvah. We definitely don’t have a clear picture; my sense was that we were discussing the ethics of a hypothetical situation similar to one laid out in the letter. That said, why claim to be a convert? It’s counterproductive. If someone claims to be a ba’al teshuva (someone who was born Jewish but became religious later in life rather than being raised that way), that’s pretty much the end of the story, but any Orthodox rabbi is going to want to confirm the details of a conversion before performing the marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/107 "2010-07-19T13:29:30Z")
> [@GilaB](#): > > If someone claims to be a ba’al teshuva (someone who was born Jewish but became religious later in life rather than being raised that way), that’s pretty much the end of the story, but any Orthodox rabbi is going to want to confirm the details of a conversion before performing the marriage. This puzzles me. I know you’re right, but under what specific reasoning or authority does the Orthodox rabbi discount the conversion performed by the Reform rabbi? His _semicha_ is greater than that of the Reform rabbi? He receieved his perhaps from the _Chafetz Chayim_? What? ---
**Author:** ![GilaB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8e7dd6/32.png) [@GilaB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GilaB)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682/108 "2010-07-19T15:41:30Z")
From an Orthodox perspective, a conversion isn’t purely a technical matter, involving dunking someone in a mikva and maybe drawing some blood as discussed above. It also involves the convert accepting the obligations and requirements of Judaism upon him/herself. Given that Reform Judaism doesn’t have the same perception of these obligations and requirements, a Reform convert won’t have studied them and made a formal decision to take all of that on, which means that to an Orthodox rabbi, they’ve skipped what is by far the most important part. (An Orthodox conversion involves a ton of study, an attempt to talk the prospective convert out of it, and at least a year of living with all of the rules and regulations of being Orthodox before the formal conversion itself.) It’s not really about the rabbi who oversaw the conversion per se. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-to-out-a-transgender-dater/546682.md?page=5)