# When toys are outlawed, only outlaws will have toys. (ATF steps on own dick) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 11, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150 "2010-03-11T20:06:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/1 "2010-03-11T20:06:00Z")
[ATF seizes 30 toy guns](http://www.koinlocal6.com/content/news/topstories/story/ATF-seizes-30-toy-guns-infuriating-local-business/vUVs2QUCAUuZWeRrqgIQaA.cspx) Short story. The ATF seized 30 Airsoft toy guns under the pretense, “With minimal work it could be converted to a machine gun,”. Umm. What drugs are you on? Or what meds did you miss taking this week? A chunk of plastic and pot metal can be converted into a fully functional, bullet firing weapon? Those of you familiar with Airsoft weapons, please quit palming your foreheads, you’ll just get a headache and the stupid will still exist. A story series about the incident. [Part 1](http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/agents-of-incompetence-atf/) [Part 2](http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/agents-of-incompetence-atf-seizes-toys-then-touts-their-danger-part-ii/) Biased, but factually accurate concerning the ability to actually do the conversion. I’ll add a link to part 3 when it becomes available. I’ll be one of the first to admit that the ATF is one of the more useful government agencies, but seriously, when one of their reps does something this phenomenally stupid, the proper response is not to circle the wagons. I almost started this in MPIMS, but considering that this is about evil guns and a government agency I don’t expect it to stay polite very long. I’ll be back later, I’ve got to go have a boating accident with some toys. Does anyone know if they float? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/2 "2010-03-11T20:26:10Z")
It’s not what the gun is capable of, it’s what the person it’s being aimed at “thinks” it is capable of doing that counts. Or, at least that’s what the prosecutor would say when someone was accused of waving a replica around in a robbery. ---
**Author:** ![tacoloco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tacoloco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tacoloco)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/3 "2010-03-11T20:35:08Z")
Damn. [Airsoft Minigun](http://www.shortyusa.com/cart/index.html?UID=1268339543-198.51.119.156&RID=4328&NL=&kiosk=&new=). ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/4 "2010-03-11T20:43:52Z")
> [@tacoloco](#): > > Damn. > > [Airsoft Minigun](http://www.shortyusa.com/cart/index.html?UID=1268339543-198.51.119.156&RID=4328&NL=&kiosk=&new=). At first I misread your post as “mini uzi” and was nonplussed. After clicking your link and looking around for something special I saw the miniguns in the corner. Then I went back to the SDMB tab to see if _those_ were what you were talking about. Which you were and they are awesome. That would be too fun to pull one of those out during a friendly game. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/5 "2010-03-11T20:52:00Z")
Do people who like real guns look down on those who like toy ones? Or are you just like, “Meh? Toy guns! What’s the point of them?”? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/6 "2010-03-11T20:54:03Z")
I paraphrase philosopher Carlin: Now they’re banning all the toy guns … and they’re keeping fucking real ones! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/7 "2010-03-11T21:31:01Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Do people who like real guns look down on those who like toy ones? > > Or are you just like, “Meh? Toy guns! What’s the point of them?”? They have their place. I keep an AirSoft around to deal with stray dogs. A quick pop with one of those pellets and they vamoose, without injury or noise. Which I couldn’t say if I use a real .45. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/8 "2010-03-11T21:45:21Z")
I like real guns, and I like the Airsoft ones. With Airsoft, we can head out to the ranch and play soldier with something that has the weight of a real gun. Lots of fun, stings when you get shot, etc. Admittedly - my son is the primary one who plays. I am the driver to the ranch, and usually just set myself up with a chair and a book. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2010, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/9 "2010-03-11T21:53:05Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Do people who like real guns look down on those who like toy ones? > > Or are you just like, “Meh? Toy guns! What’s the point of them?”? Shrug. I used to fire “real guns”. The thing I’m puzzling over is the idea that someone could or would bother to convert any of these into a gun capable of firing real bullets, and (from what I gather) be able to go full automatic too. ASSUMING that was even possible (which I highly doubt), wouldn’t it be far easier, far cheaper, and way more feasible to “cut to the chase” and get a “real” gun in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/10 "2010-03-12T04:55:00Z")
Paint guns? Pellet guns? There was a Sherlock Holmes story with Col. Moran using an air rifle, and it was supposed to be quite deadly. Of course, it shot bullets, not paint. (Sherlockian paint gun wars would be awesome, though.) ---
**Author:** ![kopek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kopek/32/337_2.png) [@kopek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kopek)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/11 "2010-03-12T09:23:38Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > Paint guns? Pellet guns? > > There was a Sherlock Holmes story with Col. Moran using an air rifle, and it was supposed to be quite deadly. Of course, it shot bullets, not paint. (Sherlockian paint gun wars would be awesome, though.) Lewis and Clark carried an air rifle with them on their expedition. We could have them battle it out with Holmes and Watson! The costumes, the dialogue - it would be cool as Hell! 🙂 > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Do people who like real guns look down on those who like toy ones? > > Or are you just like, “Meh? Toy guns! What’s the point of them?”? and > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > It’s not what the gun is capable of, it’s what the person it’s being aimed at “thinks” it is capable of doing that counts. > > Or, at least that’s what the prosecutor would say when someone was accused of waving a replica around in a robbery. I don’t have anything against various pellet and paintball guns but they do frighten me slightly. I have this fear that someone could mistake it for “real” (although they are real and should be treated with the respect intended in the design and function) and off the bugger holding it in the wrong circumstance. There was a story in one of the gun magazines ages ago about a couple wahoos out along the Keys on a boat, shooting a freon-operated fully automatic BB gun at a friend swimming around. Luckily the DEA sniper watching all this shot the boats motor instead of the Bubba but that was more because he saw they weren’t hitting anywhere close to the “victim” and not because it was a “toy gun”. Now, back to the OP ------- I may not consider things that throw projectiles totally “toys” but the ATF agents on this one are morons. I don’t have a terrific opinion of the ATF; it seems to me they spend a lot of time going after folks not causing harm and too little time going after major importers of illegal arms and criminal arms channels. Stories like this tend to make me think I could be right. ---
**Author:** ![Mekhazzio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b38774/32.png) [@Mekhazzio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mekhazzio)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/12 "2010-03-12T09:40:52Z")
Okay, so you **could** probably convert some airsoft to a limited ability to fire projectiles of a decent mass at a decent speed, in the same sense that someone **could** convert their Roomba to engage in arena combat with half-ton robots. In other words, by replacing basically every single component of the thing and at best using just the outer shell. If someone had the expertise and money to build their own electric- or gas-powered firearm, it’s safe to say that they could’ve acquired a more normal automatic weapon through vastly easier means… ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/13 "2010-03-12T11:22:59Z")
BB guns are considered “toys” these days? I don’t think there’s anything toyish about them. You can shoot your eye out with one of those things. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/14 "2010-03-12T12:13:28Z")
> [@Mekhazzio](#): > > Okay, so you **could** probably convert some airsoft to a limited ability to fire projectiles of a decent mass at a decent speed, in the same sense that someone **could** convert their Roomba to engage in arena combat with half-ton robots. In other words, by replacing basically every single component of the thing and at best using just the outer shell. If someone had the expertise and money to build their own electric- or gas-powered firearm, it’s safe to say that they could’ve acquired a more normal automatic weapon through vastly easier means… Absolutely! From the link in the OP: > [@](#): > > . . . if someone with criminal intentions has the skills to actually convert an Airsoft gun, they probably have the ability to fabricate a basic firearm from scratch . . . > > . . . I struggle to see why anyone would spend the time and money to convert a toy when it is so much easier to obtain a genuine firearm in the U.S. and if required do the work to convert it from semi auto only to full auto . . . ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/15 "2010-03-12T12:21:37Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > BB guns are considered “toys” these days? I don’t think there’s anything toyish about them. You can shoot your eye out with one of those things. Airsoft guns are a sub-category of BB guns that aren’t very powerful. So yes, they are toys, just like paintball guns (which Wikipedia says hurt more than airsoft guns) are toys. Crenshaw is a lying sack of shit who should be fired for incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/16 "2010-03-12T13:29:54Z")
My son JP has three airsoft guns, and they barely have enough stopping power between them to take down a fly. Massively stupid decision by the ATF. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/17 "2010-03-12T14:05:00Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > BB guns are considered “toys” these days? I don’t think there’s anything toyish about them. You can shoot your eye out with one of those things. For reference, these guns fire plastic quarter-gram BBs at speeds generally in the vicinity of 250-300 feet-per-second. Still can technically put an eye out or bruise at close range, but even clothing or the barest minimum of safety glasses will prevent it. Actually, I know from experience that most airsoft pellets won’t leave a mark even if you get hit in the lip at 15 feet range when your only protection on your lower face is a thin cotton cloth wrap. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/18 "2010-03-12T14:38:14Z")
If I worked for the BATFE this would be the last thing on my mind. In fact, I’d be actively encouraging criminals to convert Airsoft guns into weapons. The first time someone pulls the trigger on a converted Airsoft will be the last time after it blows itself apart. Those are precisely the kinds of criminals we want, the ones that are so abysmally stupid that they would think that converting an Airsoft gun is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/19 "2010-03-12T17:25:50Z")
[Part 3](http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/agents-of-incompetence-customs-atf-dodging-all-questions-about-toy-guns-part-iii/) Nothing really new except claiming that the ATF and CPB (Customs and Border Protection ) are refusing to respond to questions about the seizure. Someone needs to share some old cowboy wisdom with them. When you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop digging. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2010, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/20 "2010-03-12T17:32:22Z")
So, what were the authorities meant to do here - take one look at the consignment and think “Oh, “AIRSOFT” imitation guns. We don’t need to look into this any further.”? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150.md?page=2)