# When toys are outlawed, only outlaws will have toys. (ATF steps on own dick) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 11, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150 "2010-03-11T20:06:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/61 "2010-03-17T16:00:57Z")
> [@Mekhazzio](#): > > Yeah, photorealistic and with minimal lag, at that. But god, the sprint timer is so harsh! Upgradeable though, if you have enough experience points. Granted that it’s one of those harsh systems where you can only spend XP on things you’ve practiced in-game. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/62 "2010-03-17T16:13:23Z")
Yeah, I’ve been upgrading my sprint timer for the last few months so I’m pretty good on that. What I heard was that the game costs an awful lot. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/63 "2010-03-17T16:20:10Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Yeah, I’ve been upgrading my sprint timer for the last few months so I’m pretty good on that. What I heard was that the game costs an awful lot. You can buy a starter set cheap, but it will get you nailed fast in larger arena games. To be able to really compete, you need to drop around $400 for the Expansion set. The nice thing is that after that the monthly charges are pretty cheap. Getting a regular raid group together can be tough though. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/64 "2010-03-17T16:23:36Z")
We’re coming up on LOL At Doing Anything Physical Outside, Especially in Pants and Long Sleeves season. ---
**Author:** ![Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/13edae/32.png) [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Interconnected_Series_of_Tubes)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/65 "2010-03-17T22:07:32Z")
Eh. Paintball’s way better and your order won’t get stuck in customs or get you shot by the police. Too bad the ammunition costs are such a huge part of the sport, though. Airsoft gets a huge benefit simply by being far more affordable (both require fairly heavy initial investments) because the BB’s are dirt cheap. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2010, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/66 "2010-03-18T14:14:26Z")
> [@Interconnected\_Series\_of\_Tubes](#): > > Eh. Paintball’s way better and your order won’t get stuck in customs or get you shot by the police. Blasphemy! ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/67 "2010-06-08T06:47:34Z")
UPDATE: You’re going to love this, guys. The following is a letter from the BATFE. [Page 1](http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ATF-Airsoft-Firearm-Ruling-May-19-2010-Page1.jpg) [Page 2](http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ATF-Airsoft-Firearm-Ruling-May-19-2010-Page2.jpg) [Page 3](http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ATF-Airsoft-Firearm-Ruling-May-19-2010-Page3.jpg) The bottom line is this: through various machinations, consisting of about an hour of machining the lower (receiver) and fitting an AR-15 upper, the BATFE has determined that the Airsoft weapon in question does in fact constitute a firearm. So, what does this mean? It means that every single person who owns that particular Airsoft weapon, no matter how old, is currently in violation of Federal law. Imagine, if you will, a parent of a child who owns one of these. As this is not a general public announcement, most parents will be totally ignorant of this ruling until the moment when the child is placed under arrest for firearms violations. Further imagine said parents as they are read their rights and arraigned on firearms charges for supplying a “firearm” to their child when they go to pick up said child from police custody. Because, of course, children have the knowledge to modify said weapon with the appropriate tools and have access to an expensive AR-15 upper that they can fit to this now illegal “firearm”. Now that the BATFE has made this ruling it only matters that someone is found in possession of this particular item as the ruling makes no exceptions for the fact that it is being used as originally intended, as an Airsoft weapon. And, of course, the BATFE never had the opportunity to check these erstwhile “firearms” before they were sold. So, if you or your child has one of these, I would suggest that you get rid of them just as fast as you can lest you find yourself in handcuffs. I think you might have noticed the sarcasm dripping from my every word. But hey, Uncle Sugar knows best. What an asinine ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/68 "2010-06-08T13:55:58Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > UPDATE: You’re going to love this, guys. > > The following is a letter from the BATFE. > > [Page 1](http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ATF-Airsoft-Firearm-Ruling-May-19-2010-Page1.jpg) > [Page 2](http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ATF-Airsoft-Firearm-Ruling-May-19-2010-Page2.jpg) > [Page 3](http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/ATF-Airsoft-Firearm-Ruling-May-19-2010-Page3.jpg) > > The bottom line is this: through various machinations, consisting of about an hour of machining the lower (receiver) and fitting an AR-15 upper, the BATFE has determined that the Airsoft weapon in question does in fact constitute a firearm. > > So, what does this mean? It means that every single person who owns that particular Airsoft weapon, no matter how old, is currently in violation of Federal law. Imagine, if you will, a parent of a child who owns one of these. As this is not a general public announcement, most parents will be totally ignorant of this ruling until the moment when the child is placed under arrest for firearms violations. Further imagine said parents as they are read their rights and arraigned on firearms charges for supplying a “firearm” to their child when they go to pick up said child from police custody. Because, of course, children have the knowledge to modify said weapon with the appropriate tools and have access to an expensive AR-15 upper that they can fit to this now illegal “firearm”. Now that the BATFE has made this ruling it only matters that someone is found in possession of this particular item as the ruling makes no exceptions for the fact that it is being used as originally intended, as an Airsoft weapon. > > And, of course, the BATFE never had the opportunity to check these erstwhile “firearms” before they were sold. > > So, if you or your child has one of these, I would suggest that you get rid of them just as fast as you can lest you find yourself in handcuffs. > > I think you might have noticed the sarcasm dripping from my every word. But hey, Uncle Sugar knows best. What an asinine ruling. You’ll excuse me while I make incoherent noises. I suppose I should check on my airsoft AKSU and see if it’s technically a “firearm” or not now. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/69 "2010-06-08T14:21:02Z")
Not just any “firearm”, **Zeriel** , but a non-serialized, full-auto, unregistered (and unregisterable) “firearm”. Want to have a heart attack? Look at the [penalties for a single violation of the National Firearms Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFA34#Criminal_penalties). Ouch. Incidentally, they’re still [available on eBay](http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=JG+M4&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=), so get them while they’re hot. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/70 "2010-06-08T14:50:43Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > So, what does this mean? It means that every single person who owns that particular Airsoft weapon, no matter how old, is currently in violation of Federal law. No, it means they’re in violation of Federal _policy_. As ever, they will have the opportunity to challenge this ruling in court, where it will be rightfully ridiculed and thrown out. “Well, if you substitute 14 parts from an _actual_ M-16, you could fire one round, Your Honor.” “Get out of my fucking courtroom.” ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/71 "2010-06-08T15:01:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, it means they’re in violation of Federal _policy_. The National Firearms Act of 1934 is not a policy, it is a law. The BATFE has made the determination that this particular piece is an illegal firearm, so it now carries the force of law. > [@](#): > > As ever, they will have the opportunity to challenge this ruling in court, where it will be rightfully ridiculed and thrown out. > > “Well, if you substitute 14 parts from an _actual_ M-16, you could fire one round, Your Honor.” > “Get out of my fucking courtroom.” If they’re lucky enough to have a judge that will summarily dismiss the charges, only after lawyering up for a potentially very expensive defense. It may be that this ruling will be challenged on its merits. It probably has been already. But until a favorable final disposition of the BATFE ruling is made everybody who owns one is currently in violation of federal law, and that’s a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/72 "2010-06-08T15:13:39Z")
BATFE rulings are not law, they are policy. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/73 "2010-06-08T15:48:28Z")
> [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](#): > > The bottom line is this: through various machinations, consisting of about an hour of machining the lower (receiver) and fitting an AR-15 upper, the BATFE has determined that the Airsoft weapon in question does in fact constitute a firearm. Anyone have a youtube clip of the technician shooting a full magazine through his finished product? rat-a-tat-BLAM! ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/74 "2010-06-08T16:16:32Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, it means they’re in violation of Federal _policy_. As ever, they will have the opportunity to challenge this ruling in court, where it will be rightfully ridiculed and thrown out. > > “Well, if you substitute 14 parts from an _actual_ M-16, you could fire one round, Your Honor.” > “Get out of my fucking courtroom.” I’m hoping for this, but in a lot of ways it’s going to depend on exactly who is sitting in the judges’ seat. I mean, I appreciate that it’s as obvious to you as it is to me that this ruling by the BATFE is asinine. I worry it’s not as obvious to some people who should know better. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/75 "2010-06-08T16:50:18Z")
Are you suggesting that I _shouldn’t_ know better? 'Cause I could totally go the other way and be like, “whatever, fuck you and your toy soldier game”, you know. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/76 "2010-06-08T16:54:02Z")
Serious side question: is there any particular reason I could not construct a device capable of firing a single .223 round using a pipe, a hammer, and something approximating a firing pin? I guess I’d need something capable of securely holding the casing so that tapping the back of the round didn’t just eject it from the end of the pipe, but I could probably just use pliers to compress the pipe around it, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/77 "2010-06-08T17:03:41Z")
Eh, when the ATF screws up and nobody gets killed, that’s progress… ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/78 "2010-06-08T17:16:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Serious side question: is there any particular reason I could not construct a device capable of firing a single .223 round using a pipe, a hammer, and something approximating a firing pin? What you are refering to is commonly known as a [zip gun](http://www.sloshspot.com/blog/07-23-2009/The-Wonderful-World-of-Prison-Inventions-191). (halfway down page) While you could make one capable of firing a [223](http://accurateshooter.net/GOTW/17cal223x400t.jpg), it would be complicated by the shouldered design of the casing. Far easier to make one for a standard revolver cartridge or shotgun shell. ETA: Of course, you’re more likely to lose fingers or even a hand than you are of hitting your target. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/79 "2010-06-08T18:32:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Are you suggesting that I _shouldn’t_ know better? 'Cause I could totally go the other way and be like, “whatever, fuck you and your toy soldier game”, you know. 😉 😃 Seriously, you play airsoft enough even in very red places and you run into all kinds of folks who are pissed off that your plastic toy kinda looks like a real battle rifle if you squint at it and ignore the orange barrel tip. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Serious side question: is there any particular reason I could not construct a device capable of firing a single .223 round using a pipe, a hammer, and something approximating a firing pin? > > I guess I’d need something capable of securely holding the casing so that tapping the back of the round didn’t just eject it from the end of the pipe, but I could probably just use pliers to compress the pipe around it, yes? What the other guys said. Honestly I’m given to understand it works best with shotgun shells at close range. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/80 "2010-06-08T18:40:16Z")
It’s worse than that - if you cut down a tree in your backyard, modify it a bit and attach only two additional assemblies (an action and a barrel), you would have a sniper rifle. Trees are firearms! I propose we cut down all trees within 1000 yards of a school, just to be safe. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150.md?page=5)