# When toys are outlawed, only outlaws will have toys. (ATF steps on own dick) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 11, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150 "2010-03-11T20:06:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/81 "2010-06-08T18:52:53Z")
> [@Mekhazzio](#): > > Okay, so you **could** probably convert some airsoft to a limited ability to fire projectiles of a decent mass at a decent speed, in the same sense that someone **could** convert their Roomba to engage in arena combat with half-ton robots. In other words, by replacing basically every single component of the thing and at best using just the outer shell. [Here](http://questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1557)’s an interesting Roomba mod… > [@Doctor\_Who](#): > > Somewhat related: [http://hi-caliber.blogspot.com/2009/03/water-soaker-converted-to-shotgun.html](http://hi-caliber.blogspot.com/2009/03/water-soaker-converted-to-shotgun.html) > > For non-link-clickers: it’s a Super Soaker altered to house a Shotgun. The best part of this is that the Super Soaker is still fully functional… ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/82 "2010-06-08T19:49:14Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > What you are refering to is commonly known as a [zip gun](http://www.sloshspot.com/blog/07-23-2009/The-Wonderful-World-of-Prison-Inventions-191). (halfway down page) > > While you could make one capable of firing a [223](http://accurateshooter.net/GOTW/17cal223x400t.jpg), it would be complicated by the shouldered design of the casing. Far easier to make one for a standard revolver cartridge or shotgun shell. > > ETA: Of course, you’re more likely to lose fingers or even a hand than you are of hitting your target. So in other words, any household object is a firearm based on the BATF’s ruling? Or does it actually have to look like a gun before you start? > [@Zeriel](#): > > What the other guys said. Honestly I’m given to understand it works best with shotgun shells at close range. Well, I won’t be trying it with any type of ammunition soon. I’m a poor shot even with a _real_ firearm. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/83 "2010-06-08T21:35:47Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So in other words, any household object is a firearm based on the BATF’s ruling? Or does it actually have to look like a gun before you start? I’m going to have to decline to speculate on any rumors of sense or sensibility where the BATF is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2010, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/84 "2010-06-08T22:21:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > So in other words, any household object is a firearm based on the BATF’s ruling? Or does it actually have to look like a gun before you start? My understanding is that there are structural similarities in the appearance and trigger mechanics of the Airsoft M-16-lookalike, that extend to a superficial similarity with regard to mounting hold and control placement, sufficient that some machining would enable you to fit a real M-16 upper receiver and barrel and firing pin on it. So apparently, if you have a household object that looks like a lower receiver and can be contorted, machined, and upgraded with parts from a real lower receiver, then it’s a lower receiver. I understand the regulation well enough–it’s to prevent people from machining parts that are functional bits of an automatic rifle and then shipping them separately (in which case, they’re not an “automatic rifle”, they’re “a pile of precisely machined parts”). I just think that they’re going a smidge too far with it when they are essentially machining out bits of a toy in order to cram 90% of a functional weapon onto it. I also disagree with the ruling in that I believe the “lower receiver” inherently includes the hammer, firing pin, buffer assembly, and other mechanical parts, and having to graft real M-16 parts onto the Airsoft lower receiver after removing the Airsoft firing mechanism is against the spirit of the law, since without those real components the Airsoft weapon has, at best, a lower frame of the rifle but is not a “lower receiver”. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/85 "2010-06-09T19:32:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I guess I’d need something capable of securely holding the casing so that tapping the back of the round didn’t just eject it from the end of the pipe, but I could probably just use pliers to compress the pipe around it, yes? No. The brass (or even steel) cartridge case is not strong enough to contain the pressure. The cartridge case must be supported by the gun. You need a breech that locks onto the back of the pipe, and will withstand an impulse of around 50,000 psi, more or less depending on the round. and plumbing pipe probably won’t take the pressure either, especially not if you cut threads into it. Pistols, .22 and shotguns operate at much lower pressure, and that is what most zip guns are designed for. Still, they are not at all safe to operate. The receiver containing locking mechanism is the most highly stressed part of a typical rifle, and it is normally the part the BATF considers to be THE gun. A notable exception is the lower receiver of an AR-15/M-16 which the BATF considers the gun, and which operates at very low stress, and that is the only reason it MIGHT be possible to modify a toy and have it work. Another of the really stupid things about this deal is that for the effort the BATF put into turning a toy into a machine gun, they could have started with a real AR lower, done less work, and ended up with something more likely to damage the target than the shooter. AND spent less money…an AR lower costs well under $100 on sale, but those airsoft toys are 'spensive! ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/86 "2010-06-09T20:23:56Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > Another of the really stupid things about this deal is that for the effort the BATF put into turning a toy into a machine gun, they could have started with a real AR lower, done less work, and ended up with something more likely to damage the target than the shooter. AND spent less money…an AR lower costs well under $100 on sale, but those airsoft toys are 'spensive! But now they can insist they were right all along, by dammit! One of their inspectors painted himself into a corner and instead of quietly correcting the situation and moving on they all had to jump into the corner with him. Now they are vindicated by having ‘proven’ their assertion, damn the facts and feasability of their solution. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150/87 "2010-06-09T20:39:46Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > But now they can insist they were right all along, by dammit! > > One of their inspectors painted himself into a corner and instead of quietly correcting the situation and moving on they all had to jump into the corner with him. > > Now they are vindicated by having ‘proven’ their assertion, damn the facts and feasability of their solution. I sincerely hope this makes it to the courts, that’s all I’m saying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-toys-are-outlawed-only-outlaws-will-have-toys-atf-steps-on-own-dick/532150.md?page=4)