# When was the U.S. Navy at its most powerful? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164 "2012-02-27T17:38:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/21 "2012-02-27T21:44:47Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > So the U.S. Navy of 1945, comprised of 833 modern, and in most cases newly-built and fresh out of the yard warships, was IMO more powerful relative to its time than the modern U.S. Navy is to its time. Not to mention the vast number of personal available in 1945, trained in actual battle conditions. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/22 "2012-02-27T21:54:29Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > I wasn’t attempting to “pit” the WWII fleet against the modern fleet. You weren’t, but I think **silenus** was with his comment that, absent nukes, the WWII fleet “wins both” - most powerful ever, and most powerful for its time. And that’s just silly. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/23 "2012-02-27T22:05:22Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > So the U.S. Navy of 1945, comprised of 833 modern, and in most cases newly-built and fresh out of the yard warships, was IMO more powerful relative to its time than the modern U.S. Navy is to its time. Umm… Nitpick: In terms of battleships, the 1945 USN was using many (half?) laid down before, or during, WW1, not counting the _Wyoming_, which was used for training: _Pennsylvania, New York, Texas, Nevada, New Mexico, Mississippi, Idaho, Tennessee, California, Maryland,_ with _Colorado_, and _West Virginia_ being laid down in 1919 and 1920. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/24 "2012-02-27T22:39:41Z")
Nitpick to a nitpick: the old battleships were extensively overhauled during the war. For example the _Pennsylvania_ (from wiki) > [@](#): > > On 1 August [1942], Pennsylvania departed San Francisco for Pearl Harbor, arriving on 14 August. She conducted gunnery exercises and took part in carrier task force guard tactics in the Hawaiian area. On 4 October, Pennsylvania returned to San Francisco for a major overhaul and refit at the Mare Island Naval Shipyard. The ships anti-aircraft capabilities were enhanced, with ten Bofors 40 mm quad mounts and fifty-one Oerlikon 20 mm single mounts. The tripod mainmast was removed, with the stump replaced by a deckhouse above which the after main battery director cupola was housed. One of the new CXAM-1 radars was installed above the cupola. In addition the secondary 5 inch armament was replaced with the rapid fire 5 inch (130 mm)/38 cal guns in eight twin mounts for a total of 16 new dual purpose guns. These guns could elevate to 85 degrees and fire at a rate of one round every four seconds. They replaced the older 5 inch (130 mm)/51 cal and 5 inch (130 mm)/25 cal anti-ship guns.[7] The overhaul was completed on 5 February 1943. She then conducted refresher training and air defense patrol off the coast of California. For its time, the USN at the end of WW2 was the largest navy in history. It was far larger than every other navy in the world combined. In comparison during the age of sail when Britannia was ruling the waves, British policy was to have a fleet as large as the two next largest navies combined. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/25 "2012-02-27T23:54:54Z")
Modern US Navy is the most powerful Navy ever. Its training in systems and damage control is top notch. The weapons stupendous but more importantly the command and control capability is remarkable but I think there are ways where the 1945 US Navy and the Reagan era Navies were superior. At the end of WWII the US Navy accounted for more then 50% of the world’s Navy. We had enough fleets to control the oceans to a large degree while defending our own coasts. The strength of Navies has never been more lopsided as far as I know in the history of the world. After the full Reagan era build up we had the fleets to fight a 3 front war with reserves. I’m not sure the modern Navy can really claim this but then the Reagan Navy had a bigger mission in trying to finally win the Cold War then today’s Navy. The Damage control systems and training and ship defenses were really a high priority when I was in and the Command and Control were remarkable compared to prior Navies. Things that are all standard today were coming into there own back in the mid to late 80s. If the modern Navy needed to ramp up fast, it would be ready. We have ships in mothballs more powerful then any other Navy in the world. Seriously, look at the number of carriers and cruisers and maybe even one last hurrah for the Battleships if we needed ships to fight and had 18 months to send them back out to sea. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/26 "2012-02-28T00:13:01Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > But in terms of raw destructive combat power, then yes: the modern U.S. Navy smokes the 1945 Navy in a few days, with the limiting factor being the amount of on-board munitions and the time it takes to UNREP after the magazines are emptied; it takes a while to sink 833 ships. Correcting myself: the L.A. Class subs _alone_ would be enough to take out the WWII combat fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/27 "2012-02-28T00:25:40Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Nitpick to a nitpick: the old battleships were extensively overhauled during the war. For example the _Pennsylvania_… Here’s the _Pennsylvania_ in the lead in Jan. 1945, in one of the most famous naval photos of the war: [http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/US\_warships\_entering\_Lingayen\_Gulf\_1945.jpg](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/US_warships_entering_Lingayen_Gulf_1945.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/28 "2012-02-28T00:54:23Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > For its time, the USN at the end of WW2 was the largest navy in history. It was far larger than every other navy in the world combined. In comparison during the age of sail when Britannia was ruling the waves, British policy was to have a fleet as large as the two next largest navies combined. The current USN is as large as the next thirteen largest navies combined. I think the comparative advantage is larger now than it was in 1945. In 1945, the United States Navy was around three times stronger than the British Navy, which would have been the second strongest navy. In 2011, the United States Navy is around ten times stronger than the Russian Navy, which is the current number two. American naval strength (2011) 324,466 naval personnel 2384 naval ships 11 aircraft carriers 75 submarines 59 destroyers 30 frigates 12 patrol craft 14 mine warfare craft 30 amphibious assault craft 3700 naval aircraft Russian naval strength (2011) 140,000 naval personnel 233 naval ships 1 aircraft carrier 48 submarines 14 destroyers 5 frigates 60 patrol craft 34 mine warfare craft 23 amphibious assault craft 157 naval aircraft ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/29 "2012-02-28T02:55:57Z")
As a Naval Officer and part time historian (aren’t we all) I have to say ‘today’ as well. There is just no one out there that is a threat to us today. And while Great Britian wasn’t a threat to us in 1945 either, it was still significant. ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/30 "2012-02-28T05:51:04Z")
You cant really take nukes out the equation, because their existence is why many countries dont see a need to have a significant naval presence any more. You can have 80 ICBM capable submarines, and the enemy has 5, and in practical terms the level is equivalent. In my view the end of WW2 and early post WW2 is the most relevant point… Otara ---
**Author:** ![toofs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@toofs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toofs)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/31 "2012-02-28T06:50:05Z")
Today’s Navy, by a significant relative margin. The USN of today is capable of precisely engaging targets in a dramatically larger battle space than the fleet at the end of WWII. As already mentioned, cruise missles can reach deep into enemy terrain, and with our current airframes, we can accurately deliver ordnance most anywhere in the world. Our missile defense is second to none. We can identify and destroy most anything that flies from beyond visual range, using weapons fired from one platform after recieving data from another. Networking has been a radical force multiplier. With preparation, we have demonstrated the capability to strike _satellites_ in low earth orbit. From a floating platform. In relative terms, today’s USN is a much more potent fleet in terms of overall scope than any other period in its history. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/32 "2012-02-28T13:43:59Z")
Lemme tell you a story that is almost on topic. When I was in Newport the story was told that in the Good Old Days the guys at Naval War College played a remarkable war game. One of the huge wooden field-houses (gym that is) was the setting. The Blue Team sat in a stadium box on one side, the Red Team on the other. Between them the entire floor was covered with white and blue squares. But look closer and see the white squares were further divided into off-white and pure white squares. In the same way the blues were gridded off into gray-blue and sea-blue. Using telephones to simulate radios, the teams ordered their fleets into battle shields hid whole portions of the board until aircraft could search it. People with long sticks pushed large model ships into place. Aircraft flew, submarines dove, doves cried. It was great. It was perhaps the best war game ever played. They do not play it anymore. They haven’t played it since the 1950s. There is no other fleet the US Navy could conceivably ever come across in battle. That is how dominant we are. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/33 "2012-02-28T17:01:05Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > What does “most powerful for its time” mean? Relative to all other navies put together? Relative to the next most powerful navy? Relative to what would theoretically have been possible given the technology of its day? Spanish Armada before they got whipped? Later Portuguese? British, which ruled the waves? Fleet at Actium? I don’t know squat about these navies, except that they were world-powerful at one time or another. Any military/naval historians out there who want to take a swing at these? ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/34 "2012-02-28T17:05:25Z")
Note to above: I will start a new thread on this, since OP is specifally on US. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/35 "2012-02-28T18:16:33Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > They do not play it anymore. They haven’t played it since the 1950s. There is no other fleet the US Navy could conceivably ever come across in battle. That is how dominant we are. Back in the eighties, when the Cold War was still going on and the Soviets were a genuine threat, a company called Victory Games released a series of games about modern naval battles. Each game in the series was set in a different theatre: the North Atlantic, the Mediterranean, the Indian Ocean, the West Pacific, the North Pacific, the Caribbean. The designers were able to use authentic American naval dispositions. But they admitted they had to fudge the Soviet naval dispositions: the same Soviet ships would appear in different locations in different games. Because the Soviets had enough naval forces to achieve parity in one theatre but it didn’t have enough to simultaneously achieve parity in every theatre. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/36 "2012-02-28T19:28:13Z")
**Gray Ghost** , SSM’s? LGBs? BLU-109/116s? > [@ExTank](#): > > But considering that the WWII ships were “modern combatants of their time” the same way that modern ships are “modern combatants of their time,” then the [833 surface warships comprising the U.S. Navy of 8/16/1945](http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org9-4.htm#1945) is certainly more powerful in 1945 than the [122 surface warships of 9/30/2011 are in 2012.](http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org9-4.htm#2000) I don’t think you can just count hulls. The current USN has far fewer hulls, but how much effective area of the sea could they dominate at one time? If we were to ignore a nuclear exchange for whatever reason, constrain ourselves to conventional warfare, modern Naval forces including full carrier groups have global superiority. We could dominate the globe against any combined naval force on multiple fronts. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/37 "2012-02-28T20:07:20Z")
How soon everyone forgets about the [Phoenician Navy.](http://history-world.org/phoenicians.htm) They were the original mercenary navy; nations that didn’t have a navy (like Persia) contracted them. If they were on your side you had a huge advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/38 "2012-02-28T20:16:19Z")
**When was the U.S. Navy at its most powerful?** Mid-afternoon – about 30 minutes after eating. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/39 "2012-02-28T21:15:19Z")
**xtisme** is on the road and PM’d me, and gave me permission to post this for him: If you’d like my take on it I’m happy to oblige. 🙂 As in the thread, it really depends on the definition of ‘most powerful’. If we are talking raw numbers, I’d go with the immediate post WWII period before they started cutting budgets and mothballing combatants. That was the period when we still had powerful battleships with huge crews, and a huge range of carriers…lots of them. Plus all the support ships, defensive ships, subs, etc. If by ‘most powerful’ you mean raw military power, I’d say during the last US build up before the final collapse of the Soviet Union. We had a lot of very powerful and capable ships in the inventory then…a high water mark we haven’t since reached. Today, we have less ships but possibly we are at the peak of power due to the sheer technological edge. The fleet today could (if logistically supplied) pound the US fleets from 1945 or even 1985 to scrap with relative ease (obviously they would take some damage from the 1985 fleet…the biggest thing would be the carrier duels and the sheer number of subs the 1985 fleet would have), so if that’s the definition then I’d go with today’s fleet. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164/40 "2012-02-28T21:20:06Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > **Gray Ghost** , SSM’s? LGBs? BLU-109/116s? SSM: Surface to Surface Missile. Used by modern naval ships to shoot at, generally, other ships. Though some of them have features that enable them to attack targets on land. Examples of types in service include the [Exocet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exocet), [Harpoon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_AGM-84_Harpoon), and the [Sunburn](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-270_Moskit). Many of these have versions that can also be fired from aircraft. LGB: Laser Guided Bomb. “Smart bomb.” Usually an ordinary gravity bomb (i.e, there isn’t a rocket at the rear end propelling the bomb) with a seeker at the nose and fins at the tail. The tail fins help stabilize the bomb; the seeker nose homes in on reflected laser light from the target, and moves small fins on the seeker to guide the bomb to impact. Works all by itself, provided the laser dot is kept on whatever you want to destroy. Accuracy is around 5 feet or much less, given ideal conditions. [BLU-109](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLU-109_bomb)/116: The U.S. Air Force’s designation for a group of LGB’s that have the capability to eliminate hardened targets, like battleship turrets, or aircraft shelters. “Bunker-busters”. I’m glad that **Little Nemo** went through and actually crunched the numbers on the 2011 navies. That’s a staggering difference in the number of hulls. I wonder where the Royal Navy of 2011 compares? Or up and comers like the Indian Navy or PRC’s Navy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-was-the-u-s-navy-at-its-most-powerful/614164.md?page=3)