# When we fight ignorance, how confrontational do we need to be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 24, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668 "2008-07-24T22:32:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/1 "2008-07-24T22:32:04Z")
Inspired, obviously, by [this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=476503) Now, while I realize that **Diogenes** and those who agree with him don’t think he was all that confrontational, or that such was justified, I’d like to discuss it in more general terms as well as this specific instance. Where do you draw the line between “fighting ignorance” and “fighting ignorance, but also being a dick”? Between “investigating with a skeptical eye” and “humoring someone who’s lying or delusional”? Between “not letting someone get away with outlandish claims” and “slapping someone down needlessly out of some sense of intellectual superiority”? I asked [in a previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=475681) whether some people didn’t deserve respect based on their beliefs. Well, it seems that most people would agree that there are some ideas that just don’t deserve any consideration at all on any level. But how far should that go? Are we betraying the ideals of knowledge and skepticism if we take it beyond a certain point? If we do it at all? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/2 "2008-07-24T22:38:39Z")
Give it back exactly as good as you get it. Of course, the big question in that thread is who, precisely, qualified as “ignorant”. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2008, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/3 "2008-07-24T23:29:35Z")
It depends on the statement, and the conviction of the statement maker. Some ideas are so stupid and false that they are deserving of nothing more than a scathing correction when made by an adult; espescially if said adult is in a position of authority or educational capacity. For less obvious, but nonetheless incorrect misinformation, the guide is as **Begbert2** notes. Let their attitude be your guide to the level of politeness required in the interaction. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/4 "2008-07-25T00:22:44Z")
The chance that it is actually **your** ignorance that is being fought is directly proportional to how confrontational you are acting. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/5 "2008-07-25T02:33:19Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] The chance that it is actually **your** ignorance that is being fought is directly proportional to how confrontational you are acting. [/QUOTE] So if I’m nonconfrontational and universally accepting then I have true wisdom? Sorry, no. Save the Swami crap for the Ashram, this is science. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/6 "2008-07-25T02:39:57Z")
[QUOTE=Sitnam] So if I’m nonconfrontational and universally accepting then I have true wisdom? Sorry, no. Save the Swami crap for the Ashram, this is science. [/QUOTE] "Save the Swami crap for the Ashram " isn’t confrontational? You may not be seeing yourself accurately. There’s an old saying: If you’re sitting around the poker table trying to figure out who the sucker is, and you cant, then it’s you. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/7 "2008-07-25T02:48:29Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] There’s an old saying: If you’re sitting around the poker table trying to figure out who the sucker is, and you cant, then it’s you. [/QUOTE] And like nearly all old sayings they are occasionally true, but never universally so. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/8 "2008-07-25T03:02:03Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] And like nearly all old sayings they are occasionally true, but never universally so. [/QUOTE] “Even a broken clock is right twice a day.” When is that not “universally true?” ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/9 "2008-07-25T03:03:37Z")
[QUOTE=Leaper] I asked [in a previous thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=475681) whether some people didn’t deserve respect based on their beliefs. Well, it seems that most people would agree that there are some ideas that just don’t deserve any consideration at all on any level. But how far should that go? Are we betraying the ideals of knowledge and skepticism if we take it beyond a certain point? If we do it at all? [/QUOTE] I think making enemies is counterproductive to the purpose of fighting ignorance. If someone claims they have their own personal fairy following them around, and it neither incites the person to harm others nor insists that we’ll all become similar fairies when we die, why not just drop a :dubious: and move on with your life? There always seems to be someone banging around here who apparently loses sleep if someone somewhere is thinking an uncorrected illogical thought. Get a grip, live and let live. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/10 "2008-07-25T03:04:29Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] “Even a broken clock is right twice a day.” When is that not “universally true?” [/QUOTE] So, when you read the phrase “nearly all” the “nearly” is silent? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/11 "2008-07-25T03:08:33Z")
[QUOTE=Q.E.D.] So, when you read the phrase “nearly all” the “nearly” is silent? [/QUOTE] I think I’m going to have to pit you for this. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/12 "2008-07-25T03:15:33Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] “Even a broken clock is right twice a day.” When is that not “universally true?” [/QUOTE] Digital ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/13 "2008-07-25T03:27:04Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] Digital [/QUOTE] “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.” ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/14 "2008-07-25T03:32:01Z")
[QUOTE=Scylla] The chance that it is actually **your** ignorance that is being fought is directly proportional to how confrontational you are acting. [/QUOTE] [You were saying?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=476807) ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/15 "2008-07-25T03:36:46Z")
**Pretty Fucking Confrontational!!!** apparently. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/16 "2008-07-25T04:47:28Z")
> [@begbert](#): > > Give it back exactly as good as you get it. I don’t think that’s good enough. You should strive to be at least a little bit _more_ polite then the the person who’s disagreeing with you. Your rule allows – in fact, requires – a debate to get dragged down to the level of the rudest single post. OTOH, if just a few people begin responding magnanimously even in the face of perceived belligerent ignorance, most threads can be salvaged, in my experience. > [@Leaper](#): > > Well, it seems that most people would agree that there are some ideas that just don’t deserve any consideration at all on any level. But how far should that go? Are we betraying the ideals of knowledge and skepticism if we take it beyond a certain point? Not as such, but by doing so we are betraying the complimentary ideals of being decent human beings and members of polite society. I don’t know exactly how to describe the nature of that “certain point” you reference, but generally it’s the difference between being polite and being rude, and most people know both of those when they see it. For example, [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10022495&postcount=123) by **Q.E.D.** sure isn’t about exposing ignorance for the betterment of society; it’s about fucking with another human being – about spreading ill will – for kicks. Unacceptable. Saying that someone’s beliefs are so stupid they don’t require civility is nothing but an excuse for bad behavior. In contrast, most of the posts in that thread encouraging **meenie** to test the existence of her ghost friend in some objectively verifiable way were civil and matter-of-fact, and at least had an outside chance of dragging the thread in a productive direction. It is possible to be polite and to express your utter skepticism at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/17 "2008-07-25T04:59:37Z")
[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief] I think making enemies is counterproductive to the purpose of fighting ignorance. If someone claims they have their own personal fairy following them around, and it neither incites the person to harm others nor insists that we’ll all become similar fairies when we die, why not just drop a :dubious: and move on with your life? There always seems to be someone banging around here who apparently loses sleep if someone somewhere is thinking an uncorrected illogical thought. Get a grip, live and let live. [/QUOTE] "_Tolerating Ignorance Since 1973"_ Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/18 "2008-07-25T05:19:29Z")
Here’s my take on the subject. If you are offering knowledge to someone, offer it freely and without strings of any kind. Don’t expect anything of them. Don’t expect them to take, don’t expect them to thank you for it. Remember, you’ve got nothing to lose, and nothing to gain. It’s not like their continued ignorance is going to take the knowledge away from you. They’re only hurting themselves by choosing ignorance. Such people are to be pitied, not pitted. Becoming belligerant or confrontational about it wastes more of your time than you’ve already spent explaining it once. If the swine tramples on your pearls, you don’t continue throwing pearls while strongly remonstrating with the swine about “now don’t trample these!” Shrug your shoulders, don’t throw good money after bad, and move on. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/19 "2008-07-25T10:18:53Z")
You can’t teach with humiliation. (You can exercise mind control techniques, but that’s not the same.) If you want to fight ignorance, don’t beat up the student. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2008, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668/20 "2008-07-25T10:36:33Z")
[QUOTE=Czarcasm] "_Tolerating Ignorance Since 1973"_ Nope. [/QUOTE] “Fighting Ignorant People Since 1973” (It’s Taking Longer Than We Thought… Because The Motherfuckers Insist on Being Such Lying, Stupid Psychos!) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/when-we-fight-ignorance-how-confrontational-do-we-need-to-be/457668.md?page=2)